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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #260 on: May 18, 2018, 07:09:56 AM »
Per your above assertion that all of the error is contained within the black area's surface tension, what makes you think that all possible error would just be in that black area? The surface tension could also be risen higher or sunk below the true water level, as it is in this vase:
On the contrary, that tubes are used to demonstrate how the fluid level is independent of the shape.
However, the one furthest on the left has a wider opening and so it's meniscus will be different from the other narrower openings.
Also, you've again interpreted the picture as if it is framed perfectly level. Your line is perpendicular to the picture, but if you are comparing levels, you draw a line through the levels of the fluid. So it will appear angled because the picture is skewed.

Nevertheless, that photo provides a good example of why the two sighting tubes should be of the same type (material, diameter, etc.) with same meniscus properties. The object is not to know the precise level but to match levels precisely (as possible).
The surface tension is at different levels different in the tubes of this single device. The whole claim that water is level in such devices is looking shakier and shakier.
I don't mind the critique, but do so knowledgeably. Please. Don't misapply or confuse information you look up just to seek a refutation of a result you aren't comfortable with.

Some things need to be accepted as foundations. If you're going to doubt the accuracy of water leveling, I"m not going to try to educate you or convince you.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 03:30:11 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #261 on: May 18, 2018, 07:10:39 AM »
/qBut clearly in that experiment the tubes have different concentrations of...whatever that green stuff is, which affects the result.

Here is another device with more equally mixed dye:



The same sort of imprecision is seen:

« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 07:17:31 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline AATW

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #262 on: May 18, 2018, 07:16:26 AM »
If we apply the same level of nit picking and skepticism to EnaG, not a single one of his observations stand up to any scrutiny at all!
This. And this is where I question whether Tom is serious about FE research or a FE model which matches observations.

Any experiment described in ENaG or which seems to confirm a result in ENaG is accepted unquestionably.
Any experiment which shows that result to be wrong is either declared fake or analysed and analysed until any tiny speck of doubt can be found and it is dismissed.
It's a pretty dishonest way of working.

Tom produced a video of a drone which he claims showed the horizon staying the same as it rose. It didn't, you can clearly see the horizon dropping as the drone rises. When I pointed that out he just said that the video isn't stabilised...well, it's no good for proving the result then, is it?
Then he produced a video showing a camera on one building looking across another building which claimed that the horizon hadn't dipped. The problems with that were
1) The horizon actually was a couple of pixels below the roof of the other building
2) The buildings were 7 stories high and near the coast, so not high enough to clearly show the result
3) There was absolutely no way of calibrating or telling that the camera was the same height as the other building.

I know Tom likes the idea of a debating club and the idea of people arguing from a position they don't hold, I suspect that is what he is doing here.
And of course for a debate you need to have two people who take contrary positions.
But where it gets dishonest is if one side is clearly shown to be wrong just refusing to accept that or concede any ground.
Then it just becomes frustrating and pointless.
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #263 on: May 18, 2018, 07:17:06 AM »
The Encyclopedia Britannica researcher said that we shouldn't even bother trying to gauge the level of the water.
Similar to how you misquoted me earlier, you've misrepresented and misinterpreted a reference to suit a bias.
You're not being honest.  Not with me. Not with yourself. 

I'm trying to engage you in a worthy discussion.

Also, I answer your queries you direct toward me. You skip over those I direct toward you while seeking new and varied reasons to reject evidence that doesn't fit your preconceptions.

I would like you to go back and look at the picture I posted of the misaligned water levels and answer my question. It's important.

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Offline AATW

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #264 on: May 18, 2018, 07:17:52 AM »
/qBut clearly in that experiment the tubes have different concentrations of...whatever that green stuff is, which affects the result.

Here is another device with more equally mixed dye:



The same sort of imprecision is seen:


For goodness sake, Tom!
In those you can clearly see the tubes are different shapes so they've produced the result in a different way.
That doesn't apply to Bobby's apparatus either. Why are you being so dishonest?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #265 on: May 18, 2018, 07:21:08 AM »
Surface tension isn't the most predictable thing. The Encyclopedia Britannica researcher said that we shouldn't even bother trying to gauge the level of the water.

Why are we assuming that the water would be level in such an device anyway?

We are also assuming that this is all pure H20, and that there are no other fluids or substances floating on top of it:



Bobby has clearly stated that his fluid is homogeneous, (water and vodka mix) and you can see from the dye that the colour is pretty much uniform.

Your diagram shows different levels of liquid on top of a water manifold, are you suggesting Bobby has manipulated the experiment to show the water levels differently?

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

If we apply the same level of nit picking and skepticism to EnaG, not a single one of his observations stand up to any scrutiny at all!

Vodka floats on water.

http://www.smarterthanthat.com/experiments/a-party-trick-for-the-watery-dense/

Quote
Dense materials sink, and less-dense materials float. Water is denser than alcohol, so the alcohol floats on top of the water. Dense materials sink, and less-dense materials float. Water is denser than alcohol, so the alcohol floats on top of the water.

How do we know that it is a perfect water-vodka mix and that there is no separation?

The dye? Do any elements in that float?

Any other possible impurities?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 07:36:07 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #266 on: May 18, 2018, 07:26:08 AM »
The same sort of imprecision is seen:


Try it again, but instead of drawing a straight line relative to the picture orientation (same mistake you made expecting my photos to be centered), see if you can draw a straight line through the levels, being consistent as to where you cross the meniscus.

You should be able to. I can. That's level. Not the way the picture is framed. That's the point of the water leveling.

If you think a picture is always framed level, anyone can fabricate that and convince you you're seeing level. The point of the water is that you can trust it. You don't have to trust the picture-taker.

Go ahead. Retry drawing that line, but ignore the orientation/framing of the picture.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #267 on: May 18, 2018, 07:32:28 AM »
Vodka floats on water.
That's the kind of input I can appreciate.
I didn't know that. I added the alcohol to see if it would minimize the meniscus. But maybe it didn't. Maybe it separated and it's floating to the top of one vertical tube but not the other, and maybe the density difference is throwing off the measurement.

I can calibrate it if you think so. I plugged the tubes when done and I haven't stirred up the fluid since the experiment. If I show you the fluid levels are unaffected by the water/alcohol mixture, will you be satisfied? It is a good point, and something I hadn't considered.

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #268 on: May 18, 2018, 07:43:07 AM »

Surface tension isn't the most predictable thing. The Encyclopedia Britannica researcher said that we shouldn't even bother trying to gauge the level of the water.

Why are we assuming that the water would be level in such an device anyway?

We are also assuming that this is all pure H20, and that there are no other fluids or substances floating on top of it:


Nice try, but not relevant, as you know.  Where are the results of your experiments?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 07:59:20 AM by inquisitive »

Offline hexagon

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #269 on: May 18, 2018, 07:50:30 AM »
Vodka floats on water.
That's the kind of input I can appreciate.
I didn't know that. I added the alcohol to see if it would minimize the meniscus. But maybe it didn't. Maybe it separated and it's floating to the top of one vertical tube but not the other, and maybe the density difference is throwing off the measurement.

I can calibrate it if you think so. I plugged the tubes when done and I haven't stirred up the fluid since the experiment. If I show you the fluid levels are unaffected by the water/alcohol mixture, will you be satisfied? It is a good point, and something I hadn't considered.

Either you take pure alcohol, a soap solution or just a tiny drop of oil on top of each water column. All this has a lower surface tension and therefor a less pronounced meniscus.

Offline hexagon

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #270 on: May 18, 2018, 07:59:57 AM »
The same sort of imprecision is seen:


Try it again, but instead of drawing a straight line relative to the picture orientation (same mistake you made expecting my photos to be centered), see if you can draw a straight line through the levels, being consistent as to where you cross the meniscus.

You should be able to. I can. That's level. Not the way the picture is framed. That's the point of the water leveling.

If you think a picture is always framed level, anyone can fabricate that and convince you you're seeing level. The point of the water is that you can trust it. You don't have to trust the picture-taker.

Go ahead. Retry drawing that line, but ignore the orientation/framing of the picture.

The capillary pressure is a function of the diameter of the tubes. Therefor in communicating tubes of different diameter the water level is different. But it is only the diameter at the water level which is relevant, not the shape and therefor not the overall volume of the tubes. But you have to be a bit careful how you fill the tubes to observe the real equilibrium state.

 

Offline Tontogary

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #271 on: May 18, 2018, 08:00:31 AM »

Yes you are correct, Alcohol will float on top of water. But to do so needs carefully pouring on top of the water, and to avoid stirring or mixing.

Vodka is not pure alchol, it is already diluted to about 40% with water, so is already in suspension. Mixing of any kind will keep the alcohol in suspension.

https://www.solubilityofthings.com/water/alcohols

Vodka is soluble with water, and will not “settle out” nice try tom, but clutching at straws i am afraid!
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 08:02:35 AM by Tontogary »

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #272 on: May 18, 2018, 08:20:41 AM »

Yes you are correct, Alcohol will float on top of water. But to do so needs carefully pouring on top of the water, and to avoid stirring or mixing.

Vodka is not pure alchol, it is already diluted to about 40% with water, so is already in suspension. Mixing of any kind will keep the alcohol in suspension.

https://www.solubilityofthings.com/water/alcohols

Vodka is soluble with water, and will not “settle out” nice try tom, but clutching at straws i am afraid!
Checking -

1. Frame leveled vs spirit level straight edge


2. Tilt frame check


3. Tilt frame from other side


4. Longitudinal check


Looks good enough to me. I don't think fluid composition is an issue. 

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #273 on: May 18, 2018, 08:21:19 AM »
Thank you. I suppose we will have to trust you when you say that you took them out (the bushings).

OK, this is getting frackin' ludicrous now.

You. are. grasping. at. straws. by implying that the experimenter has left the tubes sealed in order to  ..... what? Align the water levels to fit his own evil agenda?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #274 on: May 18, 2018, 08:28:49 AM »
I don't want this to get lost.


These water columns are only a few inches away from each other. It may as well just be big single glass of water. The closer we get things to our face in the foreground, the more accurate all leveling needs to be. You are assuming that we can just wing it on the imprecise nature water tension and the fact that the water levels are arguably off very slightly in the images.

None can doubt that a slight error in altitude and leveling in the foreground can create a large impact on the background. You are just winging without knowing how precise you need to be.

The horizon is one of the the furthest thing on earth that can be measured. Don't you think that maybe the requirements with such slight leveling and alignment in the foreground are pretty important?
I wonder if we can qualify or quantify how much margin for error there is in each of these setup/measurement parameters just to see if we can calculate whether or not the tolerances are too great to determine, on a pass/fail basis, if horizon is or isn't at eye level.

Some of the variables for which Tom has raised precision challenges:
A) Error in matching camera/eye height to water level
B) Error in gauging water level due to meniscus
C) (more?)

We've resolved your objection about camera orientation, is that correct, Tom?
I'd still like to know how true horizon can be identified or how to calculate how far away the horizon is according to EnaG principles, but I leave that to you.

Here's a closeup of the pic in which I intentionally skewed the sighting. I've obscured the water levels by the width of the meniscus and the horizon by the width of the guideline.
There is no question that the camera height and the two water level indices are not aligned in the vertical, correct? There are clear gaps between the horizontal lines for each index marker, which means this alignment can be assessed without fear of precision error.



The front tube water level is higher than the horizon line, which is higher than the rear tube water level. Why is this out of alignment? If the only adjustment is the camera/eye height, how does it need to be adjusted? Does the camera height need to be increased or decreased? Up? Or down?

Hint:
« Last Edit: May 18, 2018, 01:36:46 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Offline hexagon

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #275 on: May 18, 2018, 08:50:53 AM »

Yes you are correct, Alcohol will float on top of water. But to do so needs carefully pouring on top of the water, and to avoid stirring or mixing.

Vodka is not pure alchol, it is already diluted to about 40% with water, so is already in suspension. Mixing of any kind will keep the alcohol in suspension.

https://www.solubilityofthings.com/water/alcohols

Vodka is soluble with water, and will not “settle out” nice try tom, but clutching at straws i am afraid!

I would take something like ethanol or isopropanol. Should not be too expansive.

Max_Almond

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #276 on: May 18, 2018, 12:30:31 PM »
At the end of the day, the water level is accurate enough for the purpose required.

If anyone disputes that, let them either show it with proper documentation, or give their protestations a rest, and maybe take a good honest look at themselves in the mirror.

Offline hexagon

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #277 on: May 18, 2018, 12:57:01 PM »
In the real world yes, but they decided to play their game and doing some experiments to present them here, so they have to play along their lines...   

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #278 on: May 18, 2018, 01:22:34 PM »

Yes you are correct, Alcohol will float on top of water. But to do so needs carefully pouring on top of the water, and to avoid stirring or mixing.

Vodka is not pure alchol, it is already diluted to about 40% with water, so is already in suspension. Mixing of any kind will keep the alcohol in suspension.

https://www.solubilityofthings.com/water/alcohols

Vodka is soluble with water, and will not “settle out” nice try tom, but clutching at straws i am afraid!

I would take something like ethanol or isopropanol. Should not be too expansive.
I'm not even sure the alcohol is doing what I wanted it to, which was improve the wetting angle for less ambiguous sighting of water levels. I was just trying different things: windex, water with a little dish soap, hydrogen pyroxide, isopropyl alcohol, water/antifreeze...whatever I could think of that I had at the house. Settled on the vodka (now, I'm not sure if it wasn't Bacardi's rum and not vodka. Yeah, it was rum now that I think about it. I emptied what was left of 2 bottles and mixed it with distilled water. I don't think I ever got around to trying the vodka once the rum seemed to work okay.)

But I do want to try the Rain-x. I just don't have any, and I'm loathe to buy things for this project. I like spending time on this because it's fun and you never know what you might learn; but I'm not so concerned with the flat/globe debate that I need to spend any money on it.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #279 on: May 18, 2018, 03:54:59 PM »
The same sort of imprecision is seen:


Try it again, but instead of drawing a straight line relative to the picture orientation (same mistake you made expecting my photos to be centered), see if you can draw a straight line through the levels, being consistent as to where you cross the meniscus.

You should be able to. I can. That's level. Not the way the picture is framed. That's the point of the water leveling.

If you think a picture is always framed level, anyone can fabricate that and convince you you're seeing level. The point of the water is that you can trust it. You don't have to trust the picture-taker.

Go ahead. Retry drawing that line, but ignore the orientation/framing of the picture.
Not going to try?

I'll help. Draw a line through the little circles. I drew them at what I think are consistent points on the miniscus of the 3 smaller-diameter vessel openings. The 4th, wider opening one, is different. The wetting angle seems closer to 90° on that one than the concavity of the others, but I gave it a shot.



Do the 4 circles line up in a straight line? Can you connect the dots?

You're red line surely won't because you've drawn it parallel to the y-axis of the picture. But the orientation of the picture has no bearing on what was level in the subject. The water is supposed to orient you to that. So try it. You might be surprised.