Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1700 on: January 01, 2015, 09:32:44 PM »
Okay, everyone.  Brace yourselves for some scholarly analysis.

I made a mistake in the above posts by referring to "lawful" good.  It makes sense that the law vs. chaos axis of alignment exists in tabletop RPGs, where one's imagination obviously forms a large part of the setting, but video games are different, and in the case of Morrowind and Skyrim, that kind of alignment isn't left up to you.  It's very much ingrained in the setting.  Morrowind is a land of law, and Skyrim is a land of chaos.  This is also reflected in the gameplay.  Almost all of the little quirks of the two games can be explained by the alignment it adheres to.

Law and order are everywhere in Morrowind.  The first part of the main quest has you reporting to a clear authority figure, Caius, who represents an even bigger authority, the Empire.  He immediately puts you to work doing seemingly mundane tasks gathering information on local legends without even telling you that you might be the Nerevarine until you're a few quests in.  If you're anything like me, you might be calling this main quest things like, "stupid," or "undermining," or "boring as tar," but then you're missing the point, just like I was.  The Blades are a formal organization with a strict hierarchy and rank structure that you need to ascend before Caius is going to stop treating you like a rookie and start giving you information that isn't purely need-to-know.  And the rest of the main quest is quite similar.  Your eventual goal is to become the Hortator, a political position recognized by the Great Houses and Ashlander tribes, so whether you choose to be good or evil, your role as the protagonist is inherently lawful.

The same applies to all the other joinable factions in the game.  Remember, there's about a dozen of them, and even more if we count the ones that you can't join.  Another reflection of the general lawfulness of life in Morrowind.  The Morag Tong in particular deserves some special attention.  Provided they follow all the regulations and fill out the proper paperwork, murder-for-hire is perfectly legal for them.  And even the villain, Dagoth Ur, is lawful evil.  He sits politely in his own little region of the map and waits for you to come visit him - okay, granted, the Tribunal are keeping him contained there, but even the agents that he has on the outside aren't actively disrupting life in Morrowind, the burden is on you to actively go and confront them.  And when you do meet Dagoth Ur, he reveals himself to be fairly polite and respectful in demeanor, as well as willing to have a reasoned discussion with you prior to your battle commencing.

In Skyrim, everything is reversed, and chaos rules the day.  This part is particularly relevant for those of you who complain about Skyrim being dumbed-down, because you're just not seeing the genius behind it all.  The classless leveling system, the combat that relies more on bashing people in the face with shields than intricate dice-rolling mechanics, the conversation that doesn't involve long lists of keywords you need to sort through - it's all a reflection of the chaos of the time.  Look at the guilds.  No longer are they orderly pyramid-style hierarchies, but loosely-organized groups with leaders who have very ad hoc management styles.

The main quest and setting reflect this as well.  Skyrim has already been torn apart by civil war, and now dragons are wrecking it even further.  There is no central authority for you to report to throughout the main quest (hence bounties only applying in the holds where you earned them), and so, while the Blades and Greybeards back you up to a degree, you're largely a chaotic hero, doing what needs to be done without any "official" orders.  And just as you are chaotic, so too, are your foes.  The dragons fly everywhere and attack everyone and everything.  They have no plans, no marching orders, nothing beyond causing destruction.  People criticize Alduin for not being particularly memorable as a villain or having any kind of interesting plan or motivation.  Well, of course he doesn't.  He's chaotic evil, and destroying the world is a perfect fit for that.

Bear in mind that I'm not saying that one of these alignments is or isn't better than the other, or that one of these games does or doesn't realize its chosen alignment better than the other.  All I'm saying here is that they complete one another.  Morrowind shows Tamriel at its most lawful, and Skyrim shows it at its most chaotic, but it's still the same Tamriel.  Taken together, these two games form a masterpiece of thematic contrast, and that is the best way to appreciate what Bethesda has wrought in its genius.  But I'm sure that some of you are now saying, "Well, that's all well and good, Saddam, but how do you know it's intentional on their behalf?"  I do not know that it is, I admit.  I might just be reading way, way too much into a couple of video games.  But then again, consider the wise words of Vivec, in his fourth sermon:

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A troupe of spirits called the Lobbyists for the Coincidence Guild appeared. Vivec understood the challenge immediately and said:

'The popular notion of God kills happenstance.'

The head of the Lobbyists, whose name is forgotten, tried to defend the concept's existence. He said, 'Saying something at the same time can be magical.'

Vivec knew that to retain his divinity that he must make a strong argument against luck. He said:

'Is not the sudden revelation of corresponding conditions and disparate elements that gel at the moment of the coincidence one of the prerequisites to being, in fact, coincidental? Synchronicity comes out of repeated coincidences at the lowest level. Further examination shows it is the utter power of the sheer number of coincidences that leads one to the idea that synchronicity is guided by something more than chance. Therefore, synchronicity ends up invalidating the concept of the coincidental, even though they are the symptomatic signs that bring it to the surface.'

Thus was coincidence destroyed in the land of the Velothi.

Beautifully stated.  May the CHIM be with you.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1701 on: January 01, 2015, 09:43:26 PM »
There was once an English teacher who adored a great poet by the name of Frederick Rowbotham. The English teacher read absolutely all of his works, some very famous, some barely known to anyone. One day, the English teacher heard of a convention downtown, and the great Fred Rowbotham would be there to comment on his works and sign copies. The English teacher squealed with delight after learning this, and hurried her way directly to the convention.

"Oh I simply adore your great poem, Outside Window, Mr. Rowbotham. I can feel the emotion as you describe the whispering pines and flowing stream. Surely, this poem is the best representation of quiet yet strong love flowing elegantly before your eyes!"

"Oh, that poem?" Fred replied, "I was just describing what was out my window that day while I ate breakfast."

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Offline Tau

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1702 on: January 01, 2015, 11:17:31 PM »
And that english teacher's name was Albert Einstein
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1703 on: January 02, 2015, 02:24:25 AM »
My latest post was mocking you, Saddam. Are you not going to retort?


Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1705 on: January 02, 2015, 04:05:01 PM »
If Rowbotham's ode to looking out his window was sublime and moving, then it doesn't matter that he personally held such a casual attitude towards it.  Likewise, the thematic depth of the contrast between Morrowind and Skyrim is not diminished simply because it may not have been intended ahead of time.  They are law and chaos.  Anu and Padomay.  The interplay is remarkable.

That being said, for the next game, I'd like a bit more lawfulness to be brought back.  Particularly the attributes.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1706 on: January 02, 2015, 04:42:33 PM »
If Rowbotham's ode to looking out his window was sublime and moving, then it doesn't matter that he personally held such a casual attitude towards it.  Likewise, the thematic depth of the contrast between Morrowind and Skyrim is not diminished simply because it may not have been intended ahead of time.  They are law and chaos.  Anu and Padomay.  The interplay is remarkable.

That being said, for the next game, I'd like a bit more lawfulness to be brought back.  Particularly the attributes.

The point is that the depth is invented by the reader, not the creator. Skyrim and Morrowang mean whatever you, Saddam, wish to believe they mean. They were ultimately created to be open world video games, nothing more, nothing less.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1707 on: January 02, 2015, 04:51:57 PM »
I think he knows that. Anyway, I enjoyed reading that. I particularly liked it because you ignored Oblivion completely.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1708 on: January 02, 2015, 06:48:23 PM »
I think he knows that.

You give Saddam too much credit.

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1709 on: January 02, 2015, 06:55:44 PM »
I do know that.  I'm simply offering an alternative perspective for the people who look at Skyrim and go "OMG TOTALLY DUMBED DOWN THEY MUST BE MARKETING THE GAME TO LITTLE KIDS NOW!"

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1710 on: January 02, 2015, 07:02:47 PM »
I do know that.  I'm simply offering an alternative perspective for the people who look at Skyrim and go "OMG TOTALLY DUMBED DOWN THEY MUST BE MARKETING THE GAME TO LITTLE KIDS NOW!"

No, you didn't. You offered some creative licensing for what really is a dumbed-down game. It's like you want the game to be good so badly, you literally change what it means to be a good game. Playing a bad game and then retroactively saying "no no guys, this is a good thing" is called cognitive dissonance.

What I really don't understand is why you're just so obsessed with Elder Scrolls.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1711 on: January 02, 2015, 07:10:25 PM »
What I really don't understand is why you're just so obsessed with Elder Scrolls.

What I don't understand is why somebody who hasn't played the games would post in this thread more than almost anyone else.
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Offline Blanko

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1712 on: January 02, 2015, 07:10:59 PM »
It's all my fault. I gave him ideas and he horribly misinterpreted them.

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1713 on: January 02, 2015, 07:15:49 PM »
No, you didn't. You offered some creative licensing for what really is a dumbed-down game. It's like you want the game to be good so badly, you literally change what it means to be a good game. Playing a bad game and then retroactively saying "no no guys, this is a good thing" is called cognitive dissonance.

Weren't you saying earlier that Skyrim was the best of the series?

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What I really don't understand is why you're just so obsessed with Elder Scrolls.

I'm not, really.  Most of my posting here is me just being bored and writing about whatever random thing comes into my head.  If we had a more active forum, I'd be more busy with other threads.

It's all my fault. I gave him ideas and he horribly misinterpreted them.

This is true.

Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1714 on: January 02, 2015, 07:23:26 PM »
Weren't you saying earlier that Skyrim was the best of the series?

I don't think anyone has said that.

And if they did they were trolling and should be ignored. No Skyrim praise allowed in this thread.

Saddam Hussein

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1715 on: January 02, 2015, 07:31:48 PM »
1. Skyrim
2. Oblivion
3. Morrowind
4. Daggerfall
5. Arena

Because this is the order in which the graphics are getting worse.

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Offline Snupes

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1716 on: January 02, 2015, 10:02:16 PM »
I do know that.  I'm simply offering an alternative perspective for the people who look at Skyrim and go "OMG TOTALLY DUMBED DOWN THEY MUST BE MARKETING THE GAME TO LITTLE KIDS NOW!"

No, you didn't. You offered some creative licensing for what really is a dumbed-down game.

So, what you're saying is that he's offering an alternate perspective?
There are cigarettes in joints. You don't smoke it by itself.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1717 on: January 02, 2015, 10:24:16 PM »
1. Skyrim
2. Oblivion
3. Morrowind
4. Daggerfall
5. Arena

Because this is the order in which the graphics are getting worse.

Skyrim is the best of the series.

So, what you're saying is that he's offering an alternate perspective?

More like he made up a reason as to why the game is the way that it is rather than accept Bethesda just isn't all that great. It's like saying "I don't know why it rains, therefore the Rain Spirit makes it rain!" It isn't an alternate perspective, it's bullshit.



Ghost of V

Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1718 on: January 02, 2015, 10:25:44 PM »
Skyrim is the best of the series.

How many ES games have you played, Rushy? Also, how much time have you spent with each?

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Offline Rushy

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Re: The Elder Scrolls Online/General Elder Scrolls Discussion
« Reply #1719 on: January 02, 2015, 10:36:21 PM »
How many ES games have you played, Rushy? Also, how much time have you spent with each?

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