[inquisitive]

You need to give some specific examples of where proof is lacking.

I appreciate that RErs ask for evidence when they routinely refuse to provide any evidence for their claims. Alas, a brief look at the top threads in the upper fora will yield plenty of examples.

At the same time please provide proof of measured distances that show a flat earth.

I presume this is your attempt to keep the thread on topic, although you opened with an off-topic statement that when I specifically requested the thread stay on topic. Unless I've made a claim here that you want proof for, I'm not sure why you're addressing me. I came in this thread because I was called out in an off-topic post.

So, consider this a warning to all of you who can't seem to stay on topic.

Sorry, don't understand what ' top threads in the upper fora' means, please give a link.  I'm also unclear what specific evidence is required for a round earth.

A discussion about areas of daylight needs agreement on the shape of the earth and the specific and relative location of land areas.

[juner]

Sorry, don't understand what ' top threads in the upper fora' means, please give a link.  I'm also unclear what specific evidence is required for a round earth.

The most current threads in the Flat Earth Discussion Boards.

A discussion about areas of daylight needs agreement on the shape of the earth and the specific and relative location of land areas.

I'd suggest sticking to discussing that, then.

[Nirmala]

Nirmala (The Heron) and other members of the RE Collective (I like that Rama), have done an expert demolition job of the FE maps and “model” posted on the wiki, you know the wiki you keep sending people to when they want stuff clearing up. Only to hear that the maps are not meant to be accurate and don’t represent the “model” and indeed there isn’t anything close to a map especially if we are going to insist on using cartesian coordinates(?), and the times that we are told that sunset/sunrise happen around the world can’t be trusted as nobody we know was in Ulan-Bator to watch the sunset last Tuesday.

And all you can come up with is “Citation needed, re-read the thread, incorrect, irrelevant, more information please?”

As I type this it’s 16.52,  I will check the sunset time that is predicted for hear on the MET office (20.07 Leicester England by the way), get the rest of the community to do the same, see if we can all get a consensus on predicted sunset times.

The Heron! I like that. Maybe I will change my user name 

As for sunrise and sunset, I just checked my location on timeanddate.com. I do not need to even time it exactly to know the times are close enough to support the original question in this thread as I am awake at both sunrise and sunset and so I know when the sky turns light and dark. Even if the times I quoted were off here and there by 10 or 15 minutes, the basic premise would still be true: that the sunlight on the bipolar map forms a circle around the areas of darkness.

[Nirmala]

Stop avoiding. Research please.

I stopped avoiding and posted the relevant sources for the times on timeanddate.com along with the reasoning for why they should be trusted.

Why do you avoid a thread like this once we actually post the information you have asked for. You stopped replying on the other thread about flight times after demanding that I provide a database showing the distances between various points on the earth. Once I pointed out that there actually is an immense database of the distances and flight paths between all of the major airports on the planet that are connected by nonstop flights (http://flightaware.com/), which adds up to records of hundreds of thousands if not millions of flights, you stopped replying on the thread.

I provide the info you demand and then you stop discussing. What is your rebuttal now to the data on timeanddate.com, since I have presented the source for that data as the Astronomical Almanac, used by navigators for 250 years to determine the location in the sky of celestial bodies?

[Baraccafuu]

I was wondering similar why for instance that Sydney gets 14 hours daylight in December and the Arctic circle gets none
(because the spotlight would need to be roughly grin shaped to cover taht area on the UN flag map.)

the sky is starting to dim and the timeanddate.com says it should set in 1 minutes.
I am in Salem Oregon. at 20:04 my time

I was not looking right at the sunset to tell exactly though...as my bedroom window faces  north.

[Nirmala]

I just realized that there is an even more ridiculously impossible pattern of daylight on the bipolar map and posted about it here:
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6072.msg115532#msg115532

In short, on Dec. 21st, if the sun circles the south pole of the bipolar map, then at certain times of day, the entire northern hemisphere would be in darkness as the sun would be on the other side of the south pole from all land masses in the north (position B on the attached map). However, it is never simultaneously dark in the entire northern hemisphere, even in the depths of winter, so the bipolar map is inherently incorrect.

[Tom Bishop]

"The Astronomical Almanac is the direct descendant of the British and American navigational almanacs. The British Nautical Almanac and Astronomical Ephemeris had been published since 1766, and was renamed The Astronomical Ephemeris in 1960. The American Ephemeris and Nautical Almanac had been published since 1852. In 1981 the British and American publications were combined under the title The Astronomical Almanac."

More info is here: http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/nao/publicat/asa.html

Another source is this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newcomb%27s_Tables_of_the_Sun

"Newcomb's Tables were the basis for practically all ephemerides of the Sun published from 1900 through 1983, including the annual almanacs of the U.S. Naval Observatory and the Royal Greenwich Observatory. The tables are seldom used now; since the Astronomical Almanac for 1984 they have been superseded by more accurate numerically-integrated ephemerides developed at Jet Propulsion Laboratory, based on much more accurate observations than were available to Newcomb. Also, the tables did not account for the effects of general relativity which was unknown at the time. Nevertheless, his tabulated values remain accurate to within a few seconds of arc to this day." (emphasis added).

So the calculators have even been improved to become more and more accurate over time based on more recent observations, although the earlier calculations were remarkably correct also.

Nirmala,

Look at the words "Ephemeris" and "ephemerides" in the sources you provided.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeris

Modern ephemerides are often computed electronically from mathematical models of the motion of astronomical objects and the Earth. Even though the calculation of these tables was one of the first applications of mechanical computers, printed ephemerides are still produced, as they are useful when computational devices are not available.

[Nirmala]

Nirmala,

Look at the words "Ephemeris" and "ephemerides" in the sources you provided on the previous page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ephemeris

Modern ephemerides are often computed electronically from mathematical models of the motion of astronomical objects and the Earth. Even though the calculation of these tables was one of the first applications of mechanical computers, printed ephemerides are still produced, as they are useful when computational devices are not available.

Yes, I get it that most of the data in these publications and on the timeanddate.com website are calculated. However, the links I offered explained that those calculations are based on observations taken over hundreds of years and the calculations are also refined when new technology allowed more accurate observations. Both the observations and calculations have proven reliable enough to have been used for those hundreds of years to navigate the oceans and less populated areas of the earth. If they were inaccurate, they would have been blamed by now for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of deaths over the centuries from shipwrecks and people lost in the wilderness. But instead the publications have been continuously published for 250 years and trusted by both navigators and astronomers who want to know when they can make their observations to avoid disasters at sea or when using extremely expensive telescopes where every minute of available time to make observations was and is considered too valuable to waste by looking in the wrong place at the wrong time. Computers have taken over for most applications from the paper publications, but the computations are the same ones used for centuries, and the results are accurate both when published on paper and when performed by a computer program.

I trust a collected body of knowledge (both observed and calculated) with that kind of track record, and yet you seem to not trust it, even when it also is used every day by people who simply need to know what time of the day it is somewhere else in the world, and/or what time of the day to head down to the beach to watch the sunset.

This is similar to our discussion about flight times. Airlines and air passengers all over the world trust the published schedules to give an accurate estimate of the time their flights will take, and the flightaware.com website collects and provides the actual flight data,,yet you seem to think there is no data. Although actually, I do not know what you think of the flightaware.com website I provided since you simply stopped participating on that thread. I did discover that if you simply register for free on their site, you can then access four months of recent flight data for any commercial flight that connects two airports on this planet based on the over 100,000 commercial flights completed each day. That all adds up to millions of data points documenting the times and therefore distances between those points with enough average accuracy to completely debunk all of the flat earth maps presented so far.

I don't know if you are suspicious of all outside information to an extreme degree, or if you simply feel threatened when there is overwhelming evidence that refutes your belief system. I also have considered that you simply post on here to see what kind of reaction you can get. You obviously do not owe me or anyone else an explanation, but I do find you unusually resistant to any evidence or even the invitation to conduct your own observations, including one that only requires you to step outside with a long straight stick. And yet, in another post, you offer to allow yourself to be sent up in a high altitude balloon and also promise to report back honestly on what you see. I have my own contradictions and hypocrisies to answer for in life, so I will leave you to yours.

[alien experiment]

Here is something that is cheaper on the budget. Get a pilot who is a flat earth believer. Fly over the "Antarctic ice wall" and get us pictures and videos of where it meets outer space.

[despat]

Here is something that is cheaper on the budget. Get a pilot who is a flat earth believer. Fly over the "Antarctic ice wall" and get us pictures and videos of where it meets outer space.

Not needed. Look below.


 It's a 7 year long research done by many scientists to find the real shape of our earth. They're either all very good liars or we actually live on a flat earth where  BIGGER LIERS  have constructed a false "Global" reality to hid something from us.  I wouldn't be surpised, ONE BIG LIE (Moon landing) and all the puffed up pride  has just led to series of lies that have gone too far (that's it's not funny anymore).

[Macarios]

Those are just calculators. You know that timeanddate.com doesn't have people at every location on earth reporting the sunrise and sunset times, right?

But YOU (or ME, or anyone) do have friends online everywhere you want.
Or find online web cameras and test day/night cycles and, where possible, shadow angles.
Publishers of TimeAndDate.com, SunCalc.org and others know very well about public scrutiny.

People can communicate nowadays with whomever wants to respond.
ANYONE can test those "calculators" any time with people all over the planet.
Instead of making database with separate data for every minut of every day, it was much more efficient and ellegant to organize it by common function.
You DO know that in many cases table CAN be represented by function.

[Tom Bishop]

Those are just calculators. You know that timeanddate.com doesn't have people at every location on earth reporting the sunrise and sunset times, right?

But YOU (or ME, or anyone) do have friends online everywhere you want.
Or find online web cameras and test day/night cycles and, where possible, shadow angles.
Publishers of TimeAndDate.com, SunCalc.org and others know very well about public scrutiny.

People can communicate nowadays with whomever wants to respond.
ANYONE can test those "calculators" any time with people all over the planet.
Instead of making database with separate data for every minut of every day, it was much more efficient and ellegant to organize it by common function.
You DO know that in many cases table CAN be represented by function.

"Anyone can do it" and "People have done it" are not acceptable levels of proof on this forum. Did you think anyone was going to be swayed by those arguments when you came up with it in your head?

[Tontogary]

- There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world.

That really is staggering. Almost beyond belief, however it sounds very much like lawyer speak. I wonder if Tom is a lawyer (or wanna be lawyer) who uses these threads to practice absurd defence strategies? Just a thought.

I have worked on ships for 33 years, of which at least 2/3 of which has been spent on board, all over the world as a navigator.
We rely upon the calculated times of sunrise and sunset, we rely on the almanacs for accuracy for position fixing.

In the 22 years of being on board a ship, not ONCE has the predicted time of sunset or sunrise, meridianal passage (noon) Ever been in question, or differed from the tabulated values, or the calculated time.

Sunset is pretty easy to calculate if you know your latitude, which has been obtainable for hundreds of years before that from Polaris (you do accept that Polaris is almost above the North Pole i take it?), and tables.
You dont even really need your longitude as you can OBSERVE and MEASURE time of meridianol passage (i.e. when the sun is at its highest, bearing north or south, which also can be used to calculate latitude) then you can use this to determine the time that sun sets, and rises.

This in fact was how towns and cities around the UK determined noon, and therefore local time, before the invention of the telegraph, and it was the introduction of the railways that brought forward the requirement to standardise time, as the safety of trains would be a nightmare if each city used its own time.
An example of this is Bristol, UK, who had local time about 10 minutes after London. It needed standardising and hence was born GMT.

However this is still relevant to the topic, as it shows how meridian all passage was used to determine local time, and that is used to determine sunset.
At places of the same lattitude sunset occurs at the same LOCAL time each day, the differences in the same time zones are the differences of geographical locations within the same time zone.

Using the example above, London (Greenwich actually) is at 0 degrees, and Bristol is at 2 degrees 35 minutes west, and whilst there should not be any arguments that the sun goes round the earth (either flat or global) prescribing 360 degrees in about 24 hours, (lets not get too pedantic about fractions of a second here) then it takes about 4 minutes to pass 1 degree, so the GMT time of sunset will be 10 mins and 20 seconds after London, however if you are using LOCAL time, as determined by the mer pass of the sun it will be at the same time as London.
That means if the time of sunset at London is 18:00 GMT the time of sunset in Bristol will be 18:10.33GMT, but will be 18:00 LT if Bristol is keeping local time.

The fact that it has worked for centuries means that the time of sunset and sunrise has been observed, and recorded in cities for hundreds of years. In fact nearly all newspapers carried times of sunset and sunrise in times gone by. These were observed, and carried forwards, so there are records. The only part you wont like is YOU need to go and find the historical records.
You made the claim they were not recorded. I have given you the proof that they were, you need to counter this other than say “no they were not!”

[Westprog]

Those are just calculators. You know that timeanddate.com doesn't have people at every location on earth reporting the sunrise and sunset times, right?

But YOU (or ME, or anyone) do have friends online everywhere you want.
Or find online web cameras and test day/night cycles and, where possible, shadow angles.
Publishers of TimeAndDate.com, SunCalc.org and others know very well about public scrutiny.

People can communicate nowadays with whomever wants to respond.
ANYONE can test those "calculators" any time with people all over the planet.
Instead of making database with separate data for every minut of every day, it was much more efficient and ellegant to organize it by common function.
You DO know that in many cases table CAN be represented by function.

"Anyone can do it" and "People have done it" are not acceptable levels of proof on this forum. Did you think anyone was going to be swayed by those arguments when you came up with it in your head?

Not on this forum, no. Out in the real world that is how people prove things.

For many hundreds of years, the time of sunrise and sunset was critical for human beings. Almanac were published with all this data included.

In a normal debate, there would be certain things accepted. However, that's not how things work here. Is it difficult to verify that published data are correct? No, but it involves some work.

We can see how this works over and over. FE proponent casts doubt on something well-attested. Someone like Tontogary makes measurements on his own behalf, and records them. FE proponents ignore this. Perhaps some FE proponent points to a misleading video, or makes an inaccurate measurement of something.

Meanwhile, sunrise and sunset continue to happen exactly as predicted. I would say like clockwork, but clocks were designed to try to be as accurate as the sun, not the other way around.

[SiDawg]

- There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world.

That really is staggering. Almost beyond belief, however it sounds very much like lawyer speak. I wonder if Tom is a lawyer (or wanna be lawyer) who uses these threads to practice absurd defence strategies? Just a thought.

Im thinking ill contact TimeAndDate.com and see how many complaints of inaccuracy there have been from people around the world... I'm thinking not many. Anyone wanna take that money?

[Tumeni]

Not needed. Look below.
VID

It's a 7 year long research done by many scientists to find the real shape of our earth. They're either all very good liars or we actually live on a flat earth where  BIGGER LIERS  have constructed a false "Global" reality to hid something from us.  I wouldn't be surpised, ONE BIG LIE (Moon landing) and all the puffed up pride  has just led to series of lies that have gone too far (that's it's not funny anymore).

See my responses on the other threads where you posted this mockumentary

[Macarios]

Those are just calculators. You know that timeanddate.com doesn't have people at every location on earth reporting the sunrise and sunset times, right?

But YOU (or ME, or anyone) do have friends online everywhere you want.
Or find online web cameras and test day/night cycles and, where possible, shadow angles.
Publishers of TimeAndDate.com, SunCalc.org and others know very well about public scrutiny.

People can communicate nowadays with whomever wants to respond.
ANYONE can test those "calculators" any time with people all over the planet.
Instead of making database with separate data for every minut of every day, it was much more efficient and ellegant to organize it by common function.
You DO know that in many cases table CAN be represented by function.

"Anyone can do it" and "People have done it" are not acceptable levels of proof on this forum. Did you think anyone was going to be swayed by those arguments when you came up with it in your head?

You are right, it is not.

If you want proof, test it, and nobody will tamper with your own test.
If you don't want proof, be aware that people understand "why would such proof hurt you".

The way you could be "swayed" is not by my arguments, but by your own observations, if you are honest to yourself.
This is not about me.

[Westprog]

- There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world.

That really is staggering. Almost beyond belief, however it sounds very much like lawyer speak. I wonder if Tom is a lawyer (or wanna be lawyer) who uses these threads to practice absurd defence strategies? Just a thought.

Im thinking ill contact TimeAndDate.com and see how many complaints of inaccuracy there have been from people around the world... I'm thinking not many. Anyone wanna take that money?

A good layman's introduction into why the accuracy of these measurements was of vital importance is the book Longitude by Dava Sobel. Latitude was easily determined by observation of the angle of the sun at noon. Longitude had to be calculated by knowing the exact time when this measurement was taken. When accurate chronometers could be found, this allowed the precise position of ships to be calculated. The observation of the sun was not something done by some secret elite in order to conceal the truth. It was essential to the functioning of the entire world economy, and the ability to measure latitude and longitude accurately did much to transform the whole of humanity. So when someone claims that this data is something unproven, that means that nothing can ever be proven. There is no possible way to demonstrate the accuracy of these measurements. Even if a multitude of people checked dawn and dusk around the world, they could all be accused of faking it, or being Russian bots, and the videos they shot would be derided as obviously fake. And someone would measure sunset in a valley between two mountain ranges and say "Look! It's all wrong!"

And finally, if the times were eventually accepted, it would turn out that they were all completely compatible with FE theory after all.