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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2017, 10:01:51 PM »
But that doesn't make them physically at the height of your eye, any more than the sun doing it would.

In a 360 degree circle around you the horizon is at 90 degrees. Does it not follow that those photons on the horizon are arriving at 90 degrees?

Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2017, 10:18:53 PM »
But that doesn't make them physically at the height of your eye, any more than the sun doing it would.

In a 360 degree circle around you the horizon is at 90 degrees. Does it not follow that those photons on the horizon are arriving at 90 degrees?
The horizon is below me. Fact.

Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2017, 10:33:38 PM »
But that doesn't make them physically at the height of your eye, any more than the sun doing it would.

In a 360 degree circle around you the horizon is at 90 degrees. Does it not follow that those photons on the horizon are arriving at 90 degrees?
No, because the sun is not physically there, and light doesn't bend. The sun is still 3000 miles above the location 6 hours to my West. The rail road tracks are still at the height of my feet (presuming the ground is flat here) and not at the height of my eyes. The light coming from the sun is coming at an angle determined by the distance to the point it is directly above. If that location is, say 8000 miles away, it'll be coming in at an angle of 20 degrees above the horizontal. Perspective doesn't change that light travels in straight lines.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2017, 11:03:46 PM »
But that doesn't make them physically at the height of your eye, any more than the sun doing it would.

In a 360 degree circle around you the horizon is at 90 degrees. Does it not follow that those photons on the horizon are arriving at 90 degrees?
No, because the sun is not physically there, and light doesn't bend. The sun is still 3000 miles above the location 6 hours to my West. The rail road tracks are still at the height of my feet (presuming the ground is flat here) and not at the height of my eyes. The light coming from the sun is coming at an angle determined by the distance to the point it is directly above. If that location is, say 8000 miles away, it'll be coming in at an angle of 20 degrees above the horizontal. Perspective doesn't change that light travels in straight lines.

If the light was coming at you at an angle of 20 degrees above the horizontal, that light source would appear 20 degrees above the horizontal.

Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2017, 11:09:40 PM »
But that doesn't make them physically at the height of your eye, any more than the sun doing it would.

In a 360 degree circle around you the horizon is at 90 degrees. Does it not follow that those photons on the horizon are arriving at 90 degrees?
No, because the sun is not physically there, and light doesn't bend. The sun is still 3000 miles above the location 6 hours to my West. The rail road tracks are still at the height of my feet (presuming the ground is flat here) and not at the height of my eyes. The light coming from the sun is coming at an angle determined by the distance to the point it is directly above. If that location is, say 8000 miles away, it'll be coming in at an angle of 20 degrees above the horizontal. Perspective doesn't change that light travels in straight lines.

If the light was coming at you at an angle of 20 degrees above the horizontal, that light source would appear 20 degrees above the horizontal.
Then either light bends, or the Earth isn't flat. Those are your options. Pick one. If you choose light bends, let's see your proof overturning years of science on the subject.

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2017, 11:57:41 PM »
But that doesn't make them physically at the height of your eye, any more than the sun doing it would.

In a 360 degree circle around you the horizon is at 90 degrees. Does it not follow that those photons on the horizon are arriving at 90 degrees?

The interesting thing about this comment is that you are actually proving that the Earth is round and simply don't realize it. Yes, if the horizon is 90 degrees, and the sun is on the horizon, the photons will arrive from that angle. This is critical. In FET, the sun will NEVER truly be on the horizon. Train tracks are often used in matters of perspective, so let's use them in an example. Let's suppose you have a laser point on a roller and a detector at the starting point. If you sent the pointer down the track it would appear to your eye to move to towards the other track as they converged VISUALLY. The beam of light, however, would stay on the detector. It would never change. This is the same with a never setting sun. It may APPEAR to be moving towards the horizon, but it isn't. Not even a little.

The Earth is round. Many nations have gone into space in one fashion or another. Private companies are now going into space. How long can you keep deluding yourself? And my importantly, why???
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2017, 12:06:51 AM »
But that doesn't make them physically at the height of your eye, any more than the sun doing it would.

In a 360 degree circle around you the horizon is at 90 degrees. Does it not follow that those photons on the horizon are arriving at 90 degrees?

The interesting thing about this comment is that you are actually proving that the Earth is round and simply don't realize it. Yes, if the horizon is 90 degrees, and the sun is on the horizon, the photons will arrive from that angle. This is critical. In FET, the sun will NEVER truly be on the horizon. Train tracks are often used in matters of perspective, so let's use them in an example. Let's suppose you have a laser point on a roller and a detector at the starting point. If you sent the pointer down the track it would appear to your eye to move to towards the other track as they converged VISUALLY. The beam of light, however, would stay on the detector. It would never change. This is the same with a never setting sun. It may APPEAR to be moving towards the horizon, but it isn't. Not even a little.

The Earth is round. Many nations have gone into space in one fashion or another. Private companies are now going into space. How long can you keep deluding yourself? And my importantly, why???

An alternative explanation is that the Ancient Greeks did not really understand how perspective works at large distances.

Where did they ever prove their theory that two parallel perspective lines will approach each other for eternity but never touch?

Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2017, 12:15:38 AM »
But that doesn't make them physically at the height of your eye, any more than the sun doing it would.

In a 360 degree circle around you the horizon is at 90 degrees. Does it not follow that those photons on the horizon are arriving at 90 degrees?

The interesting thing about this comment is that you are actually proving that the Earth is round and simply don't realize it. Yes, if the horizon is 90 degrees, and the sun is on the horizon, the photons will arrive from that angle. This is critical. In FET, the sun will NEVER truly be on the horizon. Train tracks are often used in matters of perspective, so let's use them in an example. Let's suppose you have a laser point on a roller and a detector at the starting point. If you sent the pointer down the track it would appear to your eye to move to towards the other track as they converged VISUALLY. The beam of light, however, would stay on the detector. It would never change. This is the same with a never setting sun. It may APPEAR to be moving towards the horizon, but it isn't. Not even a little.

The Earth is round. Many nations have gone into space in one fashion or another. Private companies are now going into space. How long can you keep deluding yourself? And my importantly, why???

An alternative explanation is that the Ancient Greeks did not really understand how perspective works at large distances.

Where did they ever prove their theory that two parallel perspective lines will approach each other for eternity but never touch?
But light doesn't care about perspective does it? Light travels in straight lines. It doesn't matter if the sun appears to be touching the horizon, being 3 thousand miles above the Earth it will always have a larger than 0 angle above the horizon for the light to be coming from. You *have* to have a mechanism that changes this property of light then. Or the Earth isn't flat. Those are your options at this point Tom, no matter how you want to dance around them.

Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2017, 12:41:04 AM »
But that doesn't make them physically at the height of your eye, any more than the sun doing it would.

In a 360 degree circle around you the horizon is at 90 degrees. Does it not follow that those photons on the horizon are arriving at 90 degrees?

The interesting thing about this comment is that you are actually proving that the Earth is round and simply don't realize it. Yes, if the horizon is 90 degrees, and the sun is on the horizon, the photons will arrive from that angle. This is critical. In FET, the sun will NEVER truly be on the horizon. Train tracks are often used in matters of perspective, so let's use them in an example. Let's suppose you have a laser point on a roller and a detector at the starting point. If you sent the pointer down the track it would appear to your eye to move to towards the other track as they converged VISUALLY. The beam of light, however, would stay on the detector. It would never change. This is the same with a never setting sun. It may APPEAR to be moving towards the horizon, but it isn't. Not even a little.

The Earth is round. Many nations have gone into space in one fashion or another. Private companies are now going into space. How long can you keep deluding yourself? And my importantly, why???

An alternative explanation is that the Ancient Greeks did not really understand how perspective works at large distances.

Where did they ever prove their theory that two parallel perspective lines will approach each other for eternity but never touch?
The word perspective is not relevant to this discussion. The sun is lower that the aircraft.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2017, 01:29:36 AM »
But light doesn't care about perspective does it? Light travels in straight lines. It doesn't matter if the sun appears to be touching the horizon, being 3 thousand miles above the Earth it will always have a larger than 0 angle above the horizon for the light to be coming from. You *have* to have a mechanism that changes this property of light then. Or the Earth isn't flat. Those are your options at this point Tom, no matter how you want to dance around them.

Who says that light doesn't care about perspective? How can the lands appear to ascend to eye level if they were not really ascending to your eye level? Can you see a bunny rabbit beyond your vanishing point?

You seem to think perspective is an illusion rather than physical manifestation of angles at distance.

Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #30 on: August 19, 2017, 01:49:14 AM »
But light doesn't care about perspective does it? Light travels in straight lines. It doesn't matter if the sun appears to be touching the horizon, being 3 thousand miles above the Earth it will always have a larger than 0 angle above the horizon for the light to be coming from. You *have* to have a mechanism that changes this property of light then. Or the Earth isn't flat. Those are your options at this point Tom, no matter how you want to dance around them.

Who says that light doesn't care about perspective? How can the lands appear to ascend to eye level if they were not really ascending to your eye level? Can you see a bunny rabbit beyond your vanishing point?

You seem to think perspective is an illusion rather than physical manifestation of angles at distance.
If you think that then you have even less of an idea of what is being discussed than I thought. Perspective doesn't come into this at all. If I have a completely flat plane of land (Kansas is a prime example from your own wiki) and I look out over it, it appears to rise to the eye right? But did the elevation actually change? Did the ground actually, literally rise up to the level of my eye in that distance? No. Ergo, optical illusion. Same with the sun. No matter how far away you put the sun, since light travels in straight lines it will never reach a 0 degree angle upon the horizon. It will never hit the exact side of the sun. In fact, unless the Earth is incredibly large, it won't dip past 5 degrees (I would note, this assumes 20,000 miles between you and a location 6 hours time difference, making the Earth incredibly large, and even then it's only an 8.5 degree angle). So that means the sunlight is always coming in at an angle greater than 5 degrees above horizontal. Perspective, being an illusion of the eye as shown above, cannot account for the side angle upon the clouds then. Vanishing point and perspective have nothing to do with simple science. Unless you can show light bending, you cannot explain the angle of the sun upon the plane as coming from a location nearly parallel to the horizon line.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #31 on: August 19, 2017, 02:29:59 AM »
Side view drawings of Ancient Greek perspective theories do not translate into the real world. See this video:


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Offline juner

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Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #32 on: August 19, 2017, 02:46:48 AM »
We are discussing actual measurable facts.  When I see the sun set in the west it appears higher in the sky for someone 500 miles to the west of me.

When did you measure this?

Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #33 on: August 19, 2017, 02:58:24 AM »
Yes, you've shared this video before. But that doesn't change light. The sun will never go below an 8.5 degree angle from the observer. Fact. Light travels in a straight line. Fact. Ergo, light can never come at you from an angle of less than 8.5 degrees. Perspective is a visual trick of the eyes, as I showed you with your wiki's own example of flat Kansas. The ground still appears to rise to eye level right? Parallel lines converging in the distance is a visual illusion. They never converge, because they are parallel. The ground rising to eye level in the distance is a visual illusion (assuming a flat ground) as the ground doesn't actually rise to that level. The sun sinking below the horizon due to perspective, is a visual illusion on a FE. But the measured rays of light, cannot go below an angle of 8.5 degrees (more like 15 degrees for any reasonable approximation of Earth's size).

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #34 on: August 19, 2017, 04:16:20 AM »
But that doesn't make them physically at the height of your eye, any more than the sun doing it would.

In a 360 degree circle around you the horizon is at 90 degrees. Does it not follow that those photons on the horizon are arriving at 90 degrees?

The interesting thing about this comment is that you are actually proving that the Earth is round and simply don't realize it. Yes, if the horizon is 90 degrees, and the sun is on the horizon, the photons will arrive from that angle. This is critical. In FET, the sun will NEVER truly be on the horizon. Train tracks are often used in matters of perspective, so let's use them in an example. Let's suppose you have a laser point on a roller and a detector at the starting point. If you sent the pointer down the track it would appear to your eye to move to towards the other track as they converged VISUALLY. The beam of light, however, would stay on the detector. It would never change. This is the same with a never setting sun. It may APPEAR to be moving towards the horizon, but it isn't. Not even a little.

The Earth is round. Many nations have gone into space in one fashion or another. Private companies are now going into space. How long can you keep deluding yourself? And my importantly, why???

An alternative explanation is that the Ancient Greeks did not really understand how perspective works at large distances.

Where did they ever prove their theory that two parallel perspective lines will approach each other for eternity but never touch?

I couldn't care less about the ancient Greeks. The rest of the world has advanced in our understanding of optics and how the brain works. I am discussing real, verifiable facts. For the last time PERSPECTIVE DOESN'T CHANGE WHERE AN OBJECT IS LOCATED!!! A light source above an object will NEVER directly illuminate the bottom of it. You treat perspective like it something it is not. The train track example proves exactly what I am talking about, but you ignored that...
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #35 on: August 19, 2017, 05:12:26 AM »
Yes, you've shared this video before. But that doesn't change light. The sun will never go below an 8.5 degree angle from the observer. Fact. Light travels in a straight line. Fact. Ergo, light can never come at you from an angle of less than 8.5 degrees. Perspective is a visual trick of the eyes, as I showed you with your wiki's own example of flat Kansas. The ground still appears to rise to eye level right? Parallel lines converging in the distance is a visual illusion. They never converge, because they are parallel. The ground rising to eye level in the distance is a visual illusion (assuming a flat ground) as the ground doesn't actually rise to that level. The sun sinking below the horizon due to perspective, is a visual illusion on a FE. But the measured rays of light, cannot go below an angle of 8.5 degrees (more like 15 degrees for any reasonable approximation of Earth's size).

How do you know that it's an illusion that the perspective lines converge and that they do not really converge? Is it because you said the word "Fact."?

Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #36 on: August 19, 2017, 05:53:01 AM »
Yes, you've shared this video before. But that doesn't change light. The sun will never go below an 8.5 degree angle from the observer. Fact. Light travels in a straight line. Fact. Ergo, light can never come at you from an angle of less than 8.5 degrees. Perspective is a visual trick of the eyes, as I showed you with your wiki's own example of flat Kansas. The ground still appears to rise to eye level right? Parallel lines converging in the distance is a visual illusion. They never converge, because they are parallel. The ground rising to eye level in the distance is a visual illusion (assuming a flat ground) as the ground doesn't actually rise to that level. The sun sinking below the horizon due to perspective, is a visual illusion on a FE. But the measured rays of light, cannot go below an angle of 8.5 degrees (more like 15 degrees for any reasonable approximation of Earth's size).

How do you know that it's an illusion that the perspective lines converge and that they do not really converge? Is it because you said the word "Fact."?
So you're saying the ground actually rises to eye level at the horizon upon a flat surface? The railroad tracks actually meet and merge at a point in the distance? The definition of parallel lines says they will never actually meet. Railroad tracks are a visual example of this. Parallel, never actually meeting, but appearing to in the distance. If you're going to try and argue that point then I'm going to have to assume you're just a troll at best. At worst you don't have a grounding in reality. Stop latching onto a single thing you think you have a point against and look at the whole argument Tom. Or at least be smart about what you're trying to pick a bone with and not something that is a known factor. You claim parallel lines actually converge and cross over one another in the distance. Not only does that mean they aren't parallel, but we have a stunningly easy to observe real world example of railroad tracks. They appear to converge into a single track in the distance. But we both know they don't actually do that. Could it be the convergence is an optical illusion?

Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #37 on: August 19, 2017, 06:20:10 AM »
We are discussing actual measurable facts.  When I see the sun set in the west it appears higher in the sky for someone 500 miles to the west of me.

When did you measure this?
Last week.  Do you agree?

Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2017, 07:01:58 AM »
Yes, you've shared this video before. But that doesn't change light. The sun will never go below an 8.5 degree angle from the observer. Fact. Light travels in a straight line. Fact. Ergo, light can never come at you from an angle of less than 8.5 degrees. Perspective is a visual trick of the eyes, as I showed you with your wiki's own example of flat Kansas. The ground still appears to rise to eye level right? Parallel lines converging in the distance is a visual illusion. They never converge, because they are parallel. The ground rising to eye level in the distance is a visual illusion (assuming a flat ground) as the ground doesn't actually rise to that level. The sun sinking below the horizon due to perspective, is a visual illusion on a FE. But the measured rays of light, cannot go below an angle of 8.5 degrees (more like 15 degrees for any reasonable approximation of Earth's size).

How do you know that it's an illusion that the perspective lines converge and that they do not really converge? Is it because you said the word "Fact."?
Do you really not understand the meaning of perspective? Or is it the game you play here.

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Offline juner

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Re: Airplanes lit from below
« Reply #39 on: August 19, 2017, 01:22:57 PM »
We are discussing actual measurable facts.  When I see the sun set in the west it appears higher in the sky for someone 500 miles to the west of me.

When did you measure this?
Last week.  Do you agree?

I don't necessarily disagree, but I'd love to see your logs of data and methods.