Offline Mock

  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Please, before commenting, at the very least read the summary and below. I know it's a lot of text, but it's important.

So, on the Ice Wall map / Azimuthal Equidistant Projection map. I'm sure y'all know which one I mean.
People have flown over Antarctica, and the flight distances on the southern hemiplane are way too big - let alone the fact that if it were true, planes wouldn't fly the routes they fly, but shorter ones without unnecessary arcs. It's been discussed in countless of threads.

Then there's the newer, bipolar map with Antarctica as an actual continent - yay! But with this model, there's absolutely NO explanation for people travelling from the USA to Japan in the comparatively small amount of time that is observed, since they would have to fly over the Atlantic, Europe and most of Asia.

Also, the map clearly shows there is something "south" of the South Pole, which is contradictory. It's also not how magnetic fields work. There would be large spaces of sea where a compass needle simply would do nothing at all, or just point away from the South Pole - but in this model, the direction opposite south apparently doesn't have to be north. This is in direct contradiction to what is observed everywhere on Earth. And yes, I know the geographic and magnetic South Pole are two different locations, but this problem arises no matter where specifically locate the south pole, as long as it is a fixed point. Compass readings would never be accurate whenever you are east or west of 0° longitude.



To summarize:
The Antarctica as Ice Wall model cannot be true because (among other reasons, I'm sure I'm missing some)
 - there would be bizarrely unrealistic flight durations and routes on the Southern Hemiplane, no matter where specifically the continents are located. If anyone can come up with a map where routes and distances actually behave even roughly like they do in real life, by all means enlighten us.
 - Antarctica is an actual continent, not a huge ring of ice. You can visit it, and you can fly over it, and it's all been done before. If Antarctica is observed to NOT be an Ice Wall along the edge of Earth, then where could it possibly be located in this model so that everything (compass needles / the magnetic south pole; distance from other places) still approximately matches up? It's just not possible. Again, if you disagree, give me evidence (read: a map where it works).

The Two Pole model I've seen around lately cannot be true either, because
 - There's stretches of sea (and islands) "south" (further down on a map) of the South Pole. Where does a compass needle point? North? In that case, the other readings on the compass are not correct, which is not what is observed in real life in those places. Does it just point straight away from the south pole because of magnetic repulsion of the magnetized needle? In that case, again, it doesn't point north, which is not what is observed, either. And don't tell me it's because the actual magnetic south pole is somewhere else, because we know where it is, and it's on (or extremely near) Antarctica, not far off at the South End of the World.
 - There's the unfixable issue that you have to fly over the Atlantic and Europe to get to Japan, and even if you relocate stuff on the map (because people repeatedly say those are just models of how it could be, not maps), there's always the issue of planes on the west end of the Western Hemiplane having to fly over all of the rest of the world to reach the eastern edge of the Eastern Hemiplane. This is the case with all FE maps where neither of the Poles is in the center, and no amount of relocating continents can fix that, so the Bipolar Model CANNOT POSSIBLY be accurate. You should stop using it.

Please note what I am arguing here. This post is NOT trying to disprove FE theory. What I wanted to convey is that both models FE theory has at this moment for what the world roughly looks are not compatible with our observations of this world. My conclusion out of this is NOT that the Earth is round, but that your top priority at this moment should be finding a model of the Flat Earth that is actually in accordance with the real world. Again, I am not talking about specific distances and traveling times and stuff that can be fixed by relocating the continents. I am pointing out fundamental flaws in the very nature of the existing models.

*

Offline TomInAustin

  • *
  • Posts: 248
  • Round Duh
    • View Profile
Please, before commenting, at the very least read the summary and below. I know it's a lot of text, but it's important.

So, on the Ice Wall map / Azimuthal Equidistant Projection map. I'm sure y'all know which one I mean.
People have flown over Antarctica, and the flight distances on the southern hemiplane are way too big - let alone the fact that if it were true, planes wouldn't fly the routes they fly, but shorter ones without unnecessary arcs. It's been discussed in countless of threads.

Then there's the newer, bipolar map with Antarctica as an actual continent - yay! But with this model, there's absolutely NO explanation for people travelling from the USA to Japan in the comparatively small amount of time that is observed, since they would have to fly over the Atlantic, Europe and most of Asia.

Also, the map clearly shows there is something "south" of the South Pole, which is contradictory. It's also not how magnetic fields work. There would be large spaces of sea where a compass needle simply would do nothing at all, or just point away from the South Pole - but in this model, the direction opposite south apparently doesn't have to be north. This is in direct contradiction to what is observed everywhere on Earth. And yes, I know the geographic and magnetic South Pole are two different locations, but this problem arises no matter where specifically locate the south pole, as long as it is a fixed point. Compass readings would never be accurate whenever you are east or west of 0° longitude.



To summarize:
The Antarctica as Ice Wall model cannot be true because (among other reasons, I'm sure I'm missing some)
 - there would be bizarrely unrealistic flight durations and routes on the Southern Hemiplane, no matter where specifically the continents are located. If anyone can come up with a map where routes and distances actually behave even roughly like they do in real life, by all means enlighten us.
 - Antarctica is an actual continent, not a huge ring of ice. You can visit it, and you can fly over it, and it's all been done before. If Antarctica is observed to NOT be an Ice Wall along the edge of Earth, then where could it possibly be located in this model so that everything (compass needles / the magnetic south pole; distance from other places) still approximately matches up? It's just not possible. Again, if you disagree, give me evidence (read: a map where it works).

The Two Pole model I've seen around lately cannot be true either, because
 - There's stretches of sea (and islands) "south" (further down on a map) of the South Pole. Where does a compass needle point? North? In that case, the other readings on the compass are not correct, which is not what is observed in real life in those places. Does it just point straight away from the south pole because of magnetic repulsion of the magnetized needle? In that case, again, it doesn't point north, which is not what is observed, either. And don't tell me it's because the actual magnetic south pole is somewhere else, because we know where it is, and it's on (or extremely near) Antarctica, not far off at the South End of the World.
 - There's the unfixable issue that you have to fly over the Atlantic and Europe to get to Japan, and even if you relocate stuff on the map (because people repeatedly say those are just models of how it could be, not maps), there's always the issue of planes on the west end of the Western Hemiplane having to fly over all of the rest of the world to reach the eastern edge of the Eastern Hemiplane. This is the case with all FE maps where neither of the Poles is in the center, and no amount of relocating continents can fix that, so the Bipolar Model CANNOT POSSIBLY be accurate. You should stop using it.

Please note what I am arguing here. This post is NOT trying to disprove FE theory. What I wanted to convey is that both models FE theory has at this moment for what the world roughly looks are not compatible with our observations of this world. My conclusion out of this is NOT that the Earth is round, but that your top priority at this moment should be finding a model of the Flat Earth that is actually in accordance with the real world. Again, I am not talking about specific distances and traveling times and stuff that can be fixed by relocating the continents. I am pointing out fundamental flaws in the very nature of the existing models.

Great timing for your post.  We are actually working out a model in this thread.  https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0

If a flat map is possible it will come to light.  If not it will be obvious.  It's not an argument thread but a compilation of indisputable facts.  Come join in.



The distance from New York to Paris is unknown.

Online Hmmm

  • *
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Mock,
there is an ukrainian youtuber, who tries to find out the real map layout of the world, basing on Slavic Aryan vedas, Indian vedas, ancient slavic fairytales(not joking!), ancient maps, his own intuition, claircognizance(almost the same as intuition, but, as i think, more empowered by ...).
He has a theory i wrote about a while back.
 
Quote
Great timing for your post.
And i've just stumbled upon a video about moon having an overlay of earth's true map... Just imagine if this is true, and if the real map is floating in the sky on the face of the moon, and nobody from flat earthers pays attention to it. Yet we're not even questioning the flat earth map for its flaws.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2474
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Quote
The Two Pole model I've seen around lately cannot be true either, because
 - There's stretches of sea (and islands) "south" (further down on a map) of the South Pole. Where does a compass needle point? North? In that case, the other readings on the compass are not correct, which is not what is observed in real life in those places. Does it just point straight away from the south pole because of magnetic repulsion of the magnetized needle? In that case, again, it doesn't point north, which is not what is observed, either. And don't tell me it's because the actual magnetic south pole is somewhere else, because we know where it is, and it's on (or extremely near) Antarctica, not far off at the South End of the World.
 - There's the unfixable issue that you have to fly over the Atlantic and Europe to get to Japan, and even if you relocate stuff on the map (because people repeatedly say those are just models of how it could be, not maps), there's always the issue of planes on the west end of the Western Hemiplane having to fly over all of the rest of the world to reach the eastern edge of the Eastern Hemiplane. This is the case with all FE maps where neither of the Poles is in the center, and no amount of relocating continents can fix that, so the Bipolar Model CANNOT POSSIBLY be accurate. You should stop using it.

The magnetic field lines in the Bi-Polar model looks like a bar magnet:



N is over the North Pole, and S is over the South Pole (It was discovered that the North Pole is technically the South Pole, but that is unimportant). Wherever you are, the compass will align with the field lines. The needle will point towards the North Pole in the North and it will point towards the South Pole in the South. Traveling Eastwards in the North will take you in a circle around the North Pole and traveling Eastwards in the South will take you in a circle around the South Pole.

A true bi-polar map and continental layout is unknown and unstudied, but traveling between the US to Japan under that hypothetical layout does not take a path over Asia. Traveling Eastwards or Westwards would cause an arc around the North Pole.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 10:58:49 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Mock

  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
And i've just stumbled upon a video about moon having an overlay of earth's true map... Just imagine if this is true, and if the real map is floating in the sky on the face of the moon, and nobody from flat earthers pays attention to it. Yet we're not even questioning the flat earth map for its flaws.
What the bloody hell is that guy even talking about? Moon doesn't reflect Earth like a mirror - neither in RE, nor in FE theory. This "map" is just the Moon's natural rock formations. You can actually verify this yourself with a telescope.

I just noticed the video's category is Comedy. Explains a lot, doesn't it?

Offline Mock

  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile

The magnetic field lines in that model looks like a bar magnet



N is over the North Pole, and S is over the South Pole (It was discovered that the North Pole is technically the South Pole, but that is unimportant). Wherever you are, the compass will align with the field lines. The needle will always point towards the North Pole in the North and it will always point towards the South Pole in the South.
Excuse me, but do you even know how a compass works? The needle doesn't simply point to the nearest magnetic pole. The needle is actually magnetized itself (Proof), so the pointy end (most often red) will ALWAYS point north, unless you're too close to another magnet or are actually standing ON TOP OF one of Earth's magnetic poles. This is an observed fact.

What's true is that in the Southern Hemiplane, the bottom end of the needle would point towards the South Pole due to being magnetically attracted. The front part of the needle wouldn't point to the North Pole, though. This is contradictory to what is actually observed.

Also, it still doesn't solve the problem that there is an area to the south of the South Pole and north of the North Pole. Look at the field lines at the very tips of your bar magnet and imagine a magnetized compass needle a few inches to the right and above the bar magnet's North Pole. Now ask yourself, where would it point? And is this what is observed in our world?

Basically, in your model the s-pole of your compass needle will point north in the Northern Hemiplane, but the other side would at the same time not necessarily point south. This basically renders your compass useless for anything but locating the poles, and that is assuming you know which Hemiplane you are in.

*

Offline TomInAustin

  • *
  • Posts: 248
  • Round Duh
    • View Profile
Mock,
there is an ukrainian youtuber, who tries to find out the real map layout of the world, basing on Slavic Aryan vedas, Indian vedas, ancient slavic fairytales(not joking!), ancient maps, his own intuition, claircognizance(almost the same as intuition, but, as i think, more empowered by ...).
He has a theory i wrote about a while back.
 
Quote
Great timing for your post.
And i've just stumbled upon a video about moon having an overlay of earth's true map... Just imagine if this is true, and if the real map is floating in the sky on the face of the moon, and nobody from flat earthers pays attention to it. Yet we're not even questioning the flat earth map for its flaws.

Hey, go over to debate forum and look at the "Using airline flight data" thread.  Maybe you can add to the discussion. 
The distance from New York to Paris is unknown.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2474
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
That is not true. If you have two bar magnets the two North ends will not always be pointing at each other. It is possible for the South ends to be in closer proximity and stronger connected.

What's true is that in the Southern Hemiplane, the bottom end of the needle would point towards the South Pole due to being magnetically attracted. The front part of the needle wouldn't point to the North Pole, though. This is contradictory to what is actually observed.

Yes, the North end of the compass will not point towards to the North Pole, but if you follow the direction of North on the compass it will eventually curve back to the North Pole, since the field lines change as you travel.

Quote
Also, it still doesn't solve the problem that there is an area to the south of the South Pole and north of the North Pole. Look at the field lines at the very tips of your bar magnet and imagine a magnetized compass needle a few inches to the right and above the bar magnet's North Pole. Now ask yourself, where would it point? And is this what is observed in our world?

The magnetic field lines have been experienced to be radiating away from the North Pole. I don't see what the issue is.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 12:23:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Mock

  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile


It can be observed that on a normal compass with a magnetized needle, whenever one end points towards the North Pole, the other points towards the South Pole and vice versa. With the bipolar FE model that gets promoted on here, this is clearly not always the case, as demonstrated by the above image I made using your bar magnet graphic for the field lines. At the bottom left position, for example, one end would clearly be attracted by the nearby South Pole, but the other certainly doesn't point north. Same with the far right position, just the other way around. This doesn't occur in real life.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2474
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
[It can be observed that on a normal compass with a magnetized needle, whenever one end points towards the North Pole, the other points towards the South Pole and vice versa.

Who observed that?

Offline Mock

  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
It's common knowledge. Since I assume you don't have a compass handy, unlock your iPhone. Open the Compass app. You'll notice it works just like a real one. You'll also notice that "N" for north is at a 180 degree angle to "S" for south, and they don't change positions. This means that at any given position, if you face North and turn 180 degrees you'll face South. This is clearly not the case in the bipolar FE model, as I have illustrated:

At the position on the left, you actually get a very acute angle from North to South and certainly not 180 degrees. Ask yourself: What direction is West? To assert that the BP model is correct would be to assert there are points on Earth that inherently give inaccurate compass readings because of their position in the geomagnetic field (excluding the Poles, but that should be really obvious). The burden of proof is on you.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2474
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
It's common knowledge.

I see. Then I suppose that we have nothing further to discuss, since truth is based on popular authority.

Offline Mock

  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
It's common knowledge.

I see. Then I suppose that we have nothing further to discuss, since truth is based on popular authority.
Come on, you just ignored everything else to focus on those three words instead? We have plenty to discuss. Just read the rest of the post and don't run away from the discussion because I assumed you know what a compass looks like and how it works. Excuse me, but that is common knowledge.

Offline Smokified

  • *
  • Posts: 136
    • View Profile
It's common knowledge.

I see. Then I suppose that we have nothing further to discuss, since truth is based on popular authority.

lol...nice cop out, once again.  Aren't you a little too old to be acting like a little child?

Popular authority has nothing at all to do with this.  We are talking about direct observations...ones that you can make for yourself.

Be honest, do you know you are dodging these conversations and actually believing people are buying it, or do you really have no idea what you are doing here?

Offline Mock

  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
I sent him a PM explaining in detail what I meant by "common knowledge". He's ignored it so far, yet he has obviously been online and active since I sent it almost a week ago. I guess that proves my point? ::)

Hello. To get straight to the point:
It's common knowledge.

I see. Then I suppose that we have nothing further to discuss, since truth is based on popular authority.
I think this is a very bizarre and, to be honest, also an unfair reaction. I made the effort to answer your question with a detailed explanation based on common knowledge (the common knowledge in this case being nothing more than "on a compass, the angle between North and South is 180 degrees, and the two ends of the needle simultaneously point north and south, respectively"). You then proceeded to dismiss my explanation, ignore the rest of the post and leave the thread just because my response is founded on common knowledge. Not all of it is automatically wrong, you know ("the sea is filled with saltwater" is common knowledge and a proven fact), and I NEVER asserted that truth is based on popular authority. That's just you being dishonest and looking for a way out.

[It can be observed that on a normal compass with a magnetized needle, whenever one end points towards the North Pole, the other points towards the South Pole and vice versa.

Who observed that?
I answered your question. Since you're not disputing my claim, until you give a proper answer I'll just assume you acknowledged that I'm right and gave up, and that you're not responding in order to save some face.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2474
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
The evidence for your assertion was that it was "common knowledge". I just assumed that you had no further intellectual stimulation to contribute towards the topic.

Offline Mock

  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
The evidence for your assertion was that it was "common knowledge". I just assumed that you had no further intellectual stimulation to contribute towards the topic.

I've made this clear multiple times now, and I will once more: This is not the case. My two posts and the rather long PM you chose to ignore might have tipped you off. I'm not the one who stopped contributing for a week because of a minor detail. I'm sorry if said minor detail offended you, but had you read the rest of what I wrote and not just those three words, I'm sure that would have saved us lots of drama. The evidence for my assertion was not that it was common knowledge. The evidence was everything I said in the rest of the post, which you decided to disregard.

I've made my point on the topic:

It's common knowledge. Since I assume you don't have a compass handy, unlock your iPhone. Open the Compass app. You'll notice it works just like a real one. You'll also notice that "N" for north is at a 180 degree angle to "S" for south, and they don't change positions. This means that at any given position, if you face North and turn 180 degrees you'll face South. This is clearly not the case in the bipolar FE model, as I have illustrated:

At the position on the left, you actually get a very acute angle from North to South and certainly not 180 degrees. Ask yourself: What direction is West? To assert that the BP model is correct would be to assert there are points on Earth that inherently give inaccurate compass readings because of their position in the geomagnetic field (excluding the Poles, but that should be really obvious). The burden of proof is on you.

Since you seem to be willing to engage in the discussion again (which I am thankful for), by all means go ahead. I'm all ears.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2474
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Yes, North and South sometimes point off into nothingness, and so does East and West. If you follow the reading of East or West you will eventually make a circle around the earth. If you follow the Northern or Southern magnetic field lines you will eventually reach the North or South Pole. The turn will be very gradual.

Your assertion that we can somehow know that North and South are not curved by opening an iPhone compass app and relying on common knowledge that North and South does not curve is fallacious.

Under the Round Earth model East does not always point East (except at the equator), and Eastwards navigation is possible. Consider where "East" would point 20 feet from the point of Magnetic North in RET. Why must we believe that North always points North?

Offline Mock

  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
You can't compare North and South to West and East in this case. North and South always point towards distinct locations, while West and East just go in a direction perpendicular toward the direction of North and South.

Going East until you reach the point you started from again (i.e. one full circle around the Earth), a compass will always show you're going East. Conversely, you can't make a full circle around the Earth by just going North. At some point, your compass needle will spin around and then you'll be going South.


To point to my rough sketch of the bipolar model's magnetic field (which, for the protocol, you have taken no issue with as of now), imagine standing at the position of the far right compass symbol, straight behind the North Pole (but a fair distance away from it). Your compass needle's tip (indicating North) will obviously point at the North Pole, but what about the other directions?

Say you're facing the North Pole. Obviously, North is right in front of you. What about South? Your compass will display South as right behind you - but the magnetic South Pole will, too, be located in the direction you're facing, which is a contradiction.
Imagine going "South" (as read from a compass) from this position - instead of getting closer to the Southern Hemiplane, you would actually be increasing your distance from it. To get to, say, South Africa, you would actually have to travel further North at first.

That's not all, though. If North is straight ahead of you, then East will naturally be to your right and West to your left. Now imagine someone with a compass in the UK, also facing the North Pole. For them, North is also straight ahead, so East will be to their right and West to their left. Since those two observers are looking in opposite directions (facing each other, with the North Pole between them), they can't both be right, though. In this scenario, the Western Hemiplane would become the Eastern Hemiplane after passing the North Pole.

You seem to think that those discrepancies are not observed because one would turn to the right direction while travelling due to curvature of the magnetic field lines. This might be possible for lower longitudes (e.g. travelling from the US to Brazil), where the curvature is not as noticeable and you might not be able to detect the slight shift in direction over the huge distance. But surely a 180 degree turn that is necessary in this case would be noticed? Travelling South, I'm confident you would notice that you are now facing stars that were behind you earlier during the journey.

So by claiming the Bipolar Model can be valid, you are either asserting that
  • a standard magnetized needle compass with N and S at a 180° angle displays a wildly incorrect direction for South when facing the North Pole from the side opposite Western Europe
  • there are locations on the far side of the poles where the directions of West and East as displayed by a standard magnetized needle compass are inversed, i.e. the shortest way from Berlin to Moscow is to go West
or you are asserting that travelling South from the far side of the North Pole will result in a gradual 180 degree turn that is somehow not noticed despite the existence of navigational devices other than compasses.

While those are really outlandish things to say, if they are actually true they shouldn't be hard to prove at all.

Offline Mock

  • *
  • Posts: 36
    • View Profile
Under the Round Earth model East does not always point East (except at the equator), and Eastwards navigation is possible. Consider where "East" would point 20 feet from the point of Magnetic North in RET. Why must we believe that North always points North?
The needle in a compass is magnetized, as I'm sure you know. North always points North because of magnetic attraction. I'm not sure I understand what this has to do with East?