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Offline Merkava

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2017, 04:11:17 AM »
Trying to chase this distraction down I ended up posting in the thread Tom was running from.  Copying it here as well.  I'll also add, I noticed while moving the time of the video is spot on for the line of site in the picture.  Wait?  Aren't we supposed to run away scared of these hard questions?  I had to chase you down lol.



There you go, nice paint picture.  What do you know, I put your horizon lines, put them on your moon phases picture and Shazam!  In the morning and evening you can see a very illuminated moon, who knew?  Oh yeah, everyone.

I also checked your date, the moon phase was Waxing gibbous - Visible: 93%
https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/2017/april

But, SUPER JOB AVOIDING EASILY VERIFIED DISTANCES PROVING YOU WRONG, no one even noticed.
Is it really too much effort to visualize in your head a light rolling around the middle of a plate isn't going to be "east" or "west" of anything it touches EVER?

Offline model 29

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2017, 05:01:16 AM »
According to your diagram a person atop the the earth will see the sun at 0 degrees, half intersecting the horizon, and the moon at 5 degrees.

However, the observation which was seen was that both the sun and moon were more than 5 degrees above the horizon. The Sun was 13.9 degrees above the horizon and the Moon was 11.0 degrees.

In Round Earth Theory the ecliptic is the earth's straight line alignment with the sun, and the moon deviates from it by 5 degrees. The observations make the explanation given impossible.
  Here's the thing Tom, the answer is in the data you posted.  Notice the latitude of Lewiston NY.  Have a think about that.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2017, 05:27:35 AM »
Trying to chase this distraction down I ended up posting in the thread Tom was running from.  Copying it here as well.  I'll also add, I noticed while moving the time of the video is spot on for the line of site in the picture.  Wait?  Aren't we supposed to run away scared of these hard questions?  I had to chase you down lol.

https://image.ibb.co/b0xsUv/Moon_phases5_400x400_los.jpg

There you go, nice paint picture.  What do you know, I put your horizon lines, put them on your moon phases picture and Shazam!  In the morning and evening you can see a very illuminated moon, who knew?  Oh yeah, everyone.

I also checked your date, the moon phase was Waxing gibbous - Visible: 93%
https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/2017/april

But, SUPER JOB AVOIDING EASILY VERIFIED DISTANCES PROVING YOU WRONG, no one even noticed.

« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 05:29:41 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2017, 05:33:21 AM »
Trying to chase this distraction down I ended up posting in the thread Tom was running from.  Copying it here as well.  I'll also add, I noticed while moving the time of the video is spot on for the line of site in the picture.  Wait?  Aren't we supposed to run away scared of these hard questions?  I had to chase you down lol.

https://image.ibb.co/b0xsUv/Moon_phases5_400x400_los.jpg

There you go, nice paint picture.  What do you know, I put your horizon lines, put them on your moon phases picture and Shazam!  In the morning and evening you can see a very illuminated moon, who knew?  Oh yeah, everyone.

I also checked your date, the moon phase was Waxing gibbous - Visible: 93%
https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/2017/april

But, SUPER JOB AVOIDING EASILY VERIFIED DISTANCES PROVING YOU WRONG, no one even noticed.


D-did you try putting your moon over where the moon actually is, instead of creating an optical illusion to attempt to deceive the viewer? Because from what i'm seeing you're pretty damn close if not spot on to what is being seen if you would just put the moon where it's supposed to be. Because the moon doesn't appear full, it's only mostly full. I've still got that post, but your image is so much more useful than mine, so thank you for that.
FET - A few old books making claims and telling you how things must be based on the words contained therein. This sounds familiar....

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2017, 05:45:35 AM »
D-did you try putting your moon over where the moon actually is, instead of creating an optical illusion to attempt to deceive the viewer? Because from what i'm seeing you're pretty damn close if not spot on to what is being seen if you would just put the moon where it's supposed to be. Because the moon doesn't appear full, it's only mostly full. I've still got that post, but your image is so much more useful than mine, so thank you for that.

Here you go. There should be a significant crescent.



But according to the U.S. Naval Observatory the Moon was 95% full at that time:

Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon

Quote
Astronomical Applications Dept.                                               
U.S. Naval Observatory                                                       
Washington, DC 20392-5420
                                                   
LEWISTON, NEW YORK                                                           
   o  ,    o  ,                                                               
W 79 02, N43 11
                                                             
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon                                             
Apr 8, 2017
                                                                 
Eastern Daylight Time
                                                       
Time         Altitude            Azimuth  (E of N)         Fraction illuminated                                                     
                                               
 h  m         o                    o         
...
18:30       11.0                  94.9                           0.95
...
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 06:47:24 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2017, 06:44:23 AM »
Based on what we know of the scenario it should also be possible to calculate exactly how many degrees of the moon should be in shade, based on the number of degrees the sun needs to descend to match the moon. I will leave that as an exercise for the reader, however.

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2017, 07:34:36 AM »
Based on what we know of the scenario it should also be possible to calculate exactly how many degrees of the moon should be in shade, based on the number of degrees the sun needs to descend to match the moon. I will leave that as an exercise for the reader, however.
Very carefully worded again, meaning you do not understand how to do it.

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2017, 12:52:17 PM »
Here you go. There should be a significant crescent.



no it wouldn't.  look at your diagram again.  it would appear nearly full except for some shadow at the "bottom" of the moon.  just like in your video, i might add.
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Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2017, 12:54:51 PM »
Tom - you're thinking like a flat-earther (not surprising I suppose) - you need to think three-dimensionally.   

If you're looking downward from (say) a million miles above the North Pole - you'd see the moon in some position around it's orbit and the observer watching from some arbitrary point on the surfaces of the Earth.

The elevation is relative to the local horizon - which (depending on latitude/longitude of the observer) can be anywhere imaginable...the earth being a sphere.

So long as the sun, moon and earth are not VERY close to being in a straight line, even a few degrees of misalignment is plenty to produce a full moon.

In the data you have, the moon was only 95% illuminated (it says that in the rightmost column) - so we don't even need a very close alignment to get the result you see.

But you have to think three-dimensionally here...and I know that's hard for you flat-earthers.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 01:02:47 PM by 3DGeek »

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2017, 01:21:58 PM »
D-did you try putting your moon over where the moon actually is, instead of creating an optical illusion to attempt to deceive the viewer? Because from what i'm seeing you're pretty damn close if not spot on to what is being seen if you would just put the moon where it's supposed to be. Because the moon doesn't appear full, it's only mostly full. I've still got that post, but your image is so much more useful than mine, so thank you for that.

Here you go. There should be a significant crescent.



But according to the U.S. Naval Observatory the Moon was 95% full at that time:

Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon

Quote
Astronomical Applications Dept.                                               
U.S. Naval Observatory                                                       
Washington, DC 20392-5420
                                                   
LEWISTON, NEW YORK                                                           
   o  ,    o  ,                                                               
W 79 02, N43 11
                                                             
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon                                             
Apr 8, 2017
                                                                 
Eastern Daylight Time
                                                       
Time         Altitude            Azimuth  (E of N)         Fraction illuminated                                                     
                                               
 h  m         o                    o         
...
18:30       11.0                  94.9                           0.95
...
Your image is still a bit off in just where the line of light should be upon the moon. I think the issue here is stemming from looking at this and thinking about it in 2D space, when the world is NOT 2D. Especially so when it comes to looking at the moon. Unfortunately I don't have the software or the know how in order to create anything approaching a rough analogue for this. The angle and calculations for this have to take into account all three axes in order to approach an appropriate model, and I'll admit I don't have the knowledge needed to do it nor properly understand most of the formula I come across. I can look and see that it exists, and it's explained, and these sites all agree with each other. But I'm sorry, I don't know how to make them work, because I don't understand them.

I do personally think, if you match the light side angle correctly, the amount seen by our viewer is reasonably close to what was seen, especially accounting for the increased lightness of the moon because of the time of day with the sun making the entire surface a bit more lit up because of it's interaction with the atmosphere. The same reason why the spots on the moon appear blue. Unfortunately I lack the required mathematics and working technical knowledge of the moon to do more than offer up a logical answer. To me everything looks kosher, it's a sight seen with some frequency, and I don't understand why you seem to find it impossible just because a 2D model and one set of angles can't make it exactly fit.

EDIT: 3DGeek also makes an excellent point down below in your scale being WAY off, which would also attribute to the sight lines not appearing quite right when you draw them to the moon such as you did. Again, most of these errors appear to come from thinking about and attempting to visualize the moon in 2D rather than in 3D. Lemme see if I can dig up the math on area of a half sphere, maybe that can shed some light on the angle needed to create a 95% illumination.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 01:48:02 PM by Curious Squirrel »
FET - A few old books making claims and telling you how things must be based on the words contained therein. This sounds familiar....

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Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2017, 01:32:32 PM »
Quote


The scale of the diagram is off by a LOT - and it has one glaring error.

The moon has to be about ten times further from the Earth for the scale to be correct.  As it is, it's a bit misleading.   The part where it says "How the moon should appear" isn't too far off - but it's a side-view.   The little piece of darkness at the bottom of the moon would be a few percent of the diameter of the moon - I dunno - maybe 10%,   But because the image of the moon is a circle, the bottom 10% of the diameter is MUCH less than 10% of the area.

The part where it says "How the moon does appear" is incorrect though.  It shows a perfect "full moon" with none of the moon in shadow.

The data that Tom found for that situation actually says that the moon was only "0.95" illuminated - 95%.   So 5% of the moon's AREA was not bright...but 5% of the area is a lot more than 5% of it's DIAMETER - which is what is so horribly misleading about this picture.

As seen from Earth, the moon is never actually LITERALLY 100% illuminated - but the difference can be very small...to small to be really obvious to the naked eye observer.

This easily fits within "gut feel" expectations if you draw the diagram to scale and don't lie about "How the moon does appear"...that's a downright lie...fake...fake...fake!

So, please FE'ers don't lie and cheat to make a point.  Look at the data you're quoting and please don't assume we're stupid...we're not.


« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 01:34:57 PM by 3DGeek »

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Offline Merkava

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2017, 02:27:37 PM »
Quote


The scale of the diagram is off by a LOT - and it has one glaring error.

The moon has to be about ten times further from the Earth for the scale to be correct.  As it is, it's a bit misleading.   The part where it says "How the moon should appear" isn't too far off - but it's a side-view.   The little piece of darkness at the bottom of the moon would be a few percent of the diameter of the moon - I dunno - maybe 10%,   But because the image of the moon is a circle, the bottom 10% of the diameter is MUCH less than 10% of the area.

The part where it says "How the moon does appear" is incorrect though.  It shows a perfect "full moon" with none of the moon in shadow.

The data that Tom found for that situation actually says that the moon was only "0.95" illuminated - 95%.   So 5% of the moon's AREA was not bright...but 5% of the area is a lot more than 5% of it's DIAMETER - which is what is so horribly misleading about this picture.

As seen from Earth, the moon is never actually LITERALLY 100% illuminated - but the difference can be very small...to small to be really obvious to the naked eye observer.

This easily fits within "gut feel" expectations if you draw the diagram to scale and don't lie about "How the moon does appear"...that's a downright lie...fake...fake...fake!

So, please FE'ers don't lie and cheat to make a point.  Look at the data you're quoting and please don't assume we're stupid...we're not.

I linked the phase before, here it is.

I also checked your date, the moon phase was Waxing gibbous - Visible: 93%
https://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/2017/april

The line between dark and Light is a gradient, just like on Earth.  I'll try and draw a better scaled, gradient moon later, but it's going to look perfect to me.

BTW, I saw a moon this morning low that was well lit at about 6:30ish, opposite the sun rising, in the east.
Is it really too much effort to visualize in your head a light rolling around the middle of a plate isn't going to be "east" or "west" of anything it touches EVER?

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Offline Merkava

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2017, 04:27:26 PM »
Just quick and dirty.


Left is the image from the website showing what the moon should look like, Right is a crop from :32 sec into the video, I adjusted contrast and brightness to make it easier to see.  Looks pretty much spot on.
Is it really too much effort to visualize in your head a light rolling around the middle of a plate isn't going to be "east" or "west" of anything it touches EVER?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2017, 07:46:00 PM »
Just quick and dirty.


Left is the image from the website showing what the moon should look like, Right is a crop from :32 sec into the video, I adjusted contrast and brightness to make it easier to see.  Looks pretty much spot on.

Yes, we all agreed that the moon appears to be in 95% illumination. The problem is that it should not be in so much illumination.

Your calendar is based on what the moon does do, not what it should do.

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2017, 08:09:43 PM »
Just quick and dirty.


Left is the image from the website showing what the moon should look like, Right is a crop from :32 sec into the video, I adjusted contrast and brightness to make it easier to see.  Looks pretty much spot on.

Yes, we all agreed that the moon appears to be in 95% illumination. The problem is that it should not be in so much illumination.

Your calendar is based on what the moon does do, not what it should do.
Why do you use the word 'Your' when referring to a calendar?

Offline model 29

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #35 on: August 11, 2017, 01:10:29 AM »
According to your diagram a person atop the the earth will see the sun at 0 degrees, half intersecting the horizon, and the moon at 5 degrees.

However, the observation which was seen was that both the sun and moon were more than 5 degrees above the horizon. The Sun was 13.9 degrees above the horizon and the Moon was 11.0 degrees.

In Round Earth Theory the ecliptic is the earth's straight line alignment with the sun, and the moon deviates from it by 5 degrees. The observations make the explanation given impossible.
  Here's the thing Tom, the answer is in the data you posted.  Notice the latitude of Lewiston NY.  Have a think about that.
I guess you noticed it, as it has since been removed from your posts.  Odd.

For anyone wondering, Lewiston NY is at N 43.11.   

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #36 on: August 11, 2017, 01:38:33 AM »
According to your diagram a person atop the the earth will see the sun at 0 degrees, half intersecting the horizon, and the moon at 5 degrees.

However, the observation which was seen was that both the sun and moon were more than 5 degrees above the horizon. The Sun was 13.9 degrees above the horizon and the Moon was 11.0 degrees.

In Round Earth Theory the ecliptic is the earth's straight line alignment with the sun, and the moon deviates from it by 5 degrees. The observations make the explanation given impossible.
  Here's the thing Tom, the answer is in the data you posted.  Notice the latitude of Lewiston NY.  Have a think about that.
I guess you noticed it, as it has since been removed from your posts.  Odd.

For anyone wondering, Lewiston NY is at N 43.11.   
I don't know quite as much about this as I would like, but what does that mean for his statement here?
FET - A few old books making claims and telling you how things must be based on the words contained therein. This sounds familiar....

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Offline model 29

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #37 on: August 11, 2017, 04:08:58 AM »
I don't know quite as much about this as I would like, but what does that mean for his statement here?
The moon's orbital plane is tilted 5 degrees, but that doesn't mean the moon is always 5 degrees above or below Earth's orbital plane.  Also, the 13.9 and 11 degree angles for the sun and moon at that time of day are orientated off Lewiston's latitude, which is basically leaning 43 degrees from the perpendicular orientation of Earth and moon's orbital planes.  I'm sure this varies with the time of day and time of season, etc.  TB didn't account for everything he should have. 

Example: If the moon's plane is tilted 5 degrees, should you see the moon 90 degrees above the horizon on the equator?  The 5 degree tilt of the moon's plane should become more of a 'left/right' difference as it nears the horizon when viewed from the equator.

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Offline Merkava

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2017, 05:25:02 AM »
Just quick and dirty.


Left is the image from the website showing what the moon should look like, Right is a crop from :32 sec into the video, I adjusted contrast and brightness to make it easier to see.  Looks pretty much spot on.

Yes, we all agreed that the moon appears to be in 95% illumination. The problem is that it should not be in so much illumination.

Your calendar is based on what the moon does do, not what it should do.

Wrong as you perpetually are.  It's just as it should be.  This whole thread is a straw man attempt to run from another thread.  It looks, EXACTLY as it should and as ALL reputable sources say it should, as all math and accurate diagrams say it should.  Trying to explain this to you is like trying to explain to a 5 year old that insists the world is moving and not the car why they are wrong.  Shrink your "should be" picture to scale, move it where it should be and render a picture in a 3D graphic program.  That's 3 1,2,3 dimensions...  Savvy?  NVM, obviously, no.  Forget it, head to the beach, chant "it's flat, it's flat"  while rocking back and forth.
I enjoy honing my skills on you, but really, how the hell do you continue to defile yourself defending a "theory" (laughable to even call it that) that can't predict even 1 natural, observable phenomenon?  Your attempting to argue a global conspiracy that has miraculously kept the whole world in the dark about the true nature of the Earth but has somehow failed to notice the FUCKING MOON doesn't look right every month?  So while we can predict and explain everything anyone can see looking up, with formulas that have been around for 100's-1000's of years. (Including the phases of the moon)  somehow they failed to "bullshit" the moon as well?
So really, PUT UP OR STFU!  You and your band of simpletons can't produce a map, the distance between any 2 locations, the direction the sun is going to rise or set tomorrow, what time it is in a given location, the phase of the moon, the next solar or lunar eclipse, why either of them occur.  You can't scrounge together enough money or interest to pursue even the simplest of research or experiments humans have been performing for the same 1000's of years while riding horses and sail boats!
We have freaking pictures of the planet and you say the are Photoshoped?  Really, well how about you all Photoshop us a picture of your world and put everything we see in it?  While your at it, animate the moon, planets and stars and let's check it out.
No one avoided this charade as you said we would, it's just stupid.  Something everyone see's all the time is "impossible"  because you lack the skill to understand, illustrate or convey it?  Pathetic...
Is it really too much effort to visualize in your head a light rolling around the middle of a plate isn't going to be "east" or "west" of anything it touches EVER?

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2017, 02:28:18 PM »

Top rant.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll