Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« on: July 20, 2017, 04:30:14 AM »
Here's the thing about gravity:

It's nothing more than something to describe why things fall down. In order for ANYTHING to move, or have any acceleration, you need a force to act upon it. So when an object experiences ANY change in velocity, there WAS a force that was acts upon it. In the case for gravity that force is MEASURABLE at 9.8 m/s^2 or about 10 newtons.

Now, the disagreement between science and flat earthers is that what is this force dependent on. The rest of the world says "mass" while the flat earthers say buoyancy and density. Here's the problem with the latter explanation....

Density isn't a FORCE. It's a measure of how much "stuff" there is per unit of volume. Density can never be a force. If an object were to be pulled in the direction where an area is less dense (e.g object falling from air), the flat earthers must explain, WHY IS DENSITY ONLY ACTING DOWN. Why doesn't a bowling ball fall in some other direction, if there is less dense air 360 degrees around that ball? Why is density so selective? What's the mechanism behind that?

What I find really funny and ironic is that flat earthers would often complain "how come gravity is so selective while a bowling ball can fall, while a feather or bird floats in the air", while being foolishly ignorant, that there can be a significant amount of force being exerted on the atmosphere. YET, their explanation somehow makes density act ONLY IN ONE DIRECTION! When you ask THEM why density is so selective, they NEVER have an answer!

Other times flat earthers would say "well, its buoyancy...A basket ball floats in water, but a bowling ball sinks. Same with the atmosphere".

This never fails to really crack me up. This explanation is PROOF how flat earthers NEVER look into a scientific concept, without quote mining it first.

The equation for buoyancy is

Fb=p(fl)*V*g

Where
p(fl)=density of the fluid
V=volume of the object
g=force of gravity (9.8 m/s^2)

Yep. YOU CAN'T HAVE BUOYANCY WITHOUT GRAVITY. If you say that the BUOYANT force is the CAUSE of the gravitational force, well then that literally explains NOTHING! Where's the "9.8 m/s^2" coming from?! OF COURSE there's gonna be a buoyant force in the atmosphere because there's a fluid to exert pressure on!

But here's the thing. The mechanism behind buoyancy is that you need to exert a PRESSURE on a fluid, and that fluid will exert an OPPOSITE force (Newton's 3rd law) that we would call buoyancy.

Now, WHERE IS THAT PRESSURE COMING FROM...?

Hint hint....(its from the 9.8m/s^2)

GRAVITY!

Anyone who actually understands buoyancy in the most basic sense of the word, knows that you can't have buoyancy without gravity, because there was never a force to exert the pressure in the first place!

Depending on the shape or DENSITY of the object, the force of buoyancy can be great enough so that the object would float on the fluid. Flat earthers only focus ON THAT PART ("Depending on the shape or DENSITY of the object") BUT NEVER THE FIRST PART (You need to exert a PRESSURE on a fluid). It would be easier, however, just to describe that in math.

And here's a fairly simple example that describes what I'm saying.

The flame of a candle rises due to the buoyant force from the surrounding cooler air. Go in a 0g airplane, and the candle's flame doesn't rise, but it goes in all directions. Showing how you can't have buoyancy without acceleration IN THE FIRST PLACE. There's other examples I can also give, but this seemed to me to be the simplest. And this shouldn't be too surprising when you look at the equation of buoyancy, it INCLUDES the acceleration due to gravity.

So using buoyancy to explain why there's gravitational acceleration is the definition of circular logic.

Thanks for reading. Would love to see alternative theories to gravity (e.g electromagnetism...oooh can't wait to write about that!)

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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2017, 12:53:54 PM »
Do you enjoy arguing with yourself? No one here is a proponent of this density model. I think you have the wrong forum.
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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2017, 02:55:14 PM »
Do you enjoy arguing with yourself? No one here is a proponent of this density model. I think you have the wrong forum.
Looking at his other thread, it doesn't look like he's bothered to even read the basics. It's quite sad.
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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2017, 06:00:07 PM »
For every problem, there are generally at least three or four competing FE theories.  For "gravity", I'm aware of three:

1) The "density" theory is no longer popular...especially amongst the FE'ers on this forum.  It's ridiculously easy to debunk...put any object from a feather to a bowling ball into a bell jar, pump out the air with a vacuum pump and see if it floats.   Nope - it does not.  Theory busted.

2) The Earth is accelerating upwards at 9.8 m/s/s because of...magic pixie dust...whatever.   This would indeed reproduce all the effects of gravity.  Albert Einstein was kind enough to prove that equivalence in his General theory of relativity.   The first complaint of most RE'ers about this is that after a billion years of this acceleration, the world would be going faster than light and that's not possible...but enter Albert Einstein again - and because time/length and mass change for the people inside the moving Earth - any outside observer would see the earth's acceleration being slowed by the slowing passage of time as it goes faster - so it never exceeds light speed...and for people on the accelerating earth, there is no problem whatever.   The reason this theory cannot be true is that gravity is measurably different at the equator compared to the poles - and the earth can only accelerate at one rate without tearing itself apart.   So although this is by far the most popular FE theory on this forum, it's also BUSTED.

3) Gravity is present in the Flat Earth...this would be busted if the Earth were a neat little round disk because people close to the rim would be attracted towards the center...but members of this forum seem to believe that the Earth is infinite in extent - and if that's the case then gravity works just like in RE theory and all is well.   Moreover - the issues of gravity varying with altitude, at the poles and equator and near tall mountains all work perfectly providing the earth has a bit of a dimple where the pole is and a subtle bulge around the circular equator...but gravity works as an FE theory.   I'm not sure why it's not liked.
 
There are people here who believe that it's a mixture of acceleration and true gravity...which is messy.

All of them have trouble explaining tides.   These are caused in RET by the moon's gravity - but in FET, the moon is too small for that...but hey, maybe water likes the moon and gathers towards it or something.   Sadly, that idea doesn't explain why there are TWO high tides every day.

So...as others here have said - it's wise to read ALL of the Wiki before jumping in with criticisms of things that the FE community don't actually claim.

Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2017, 09:15:22 PM »
For every problem, there are generally at least three or four competing FE theories.  For "gravity", I'm aware of three:

1) The "density" theory is no longer popular...especially amongst the FE'ers on this forum.  It's ridiculously easy to debunk...put any object from a feather to a bowling ball into a bell jar, pump out the air with a vacuum pump and see if it floats.   Nope - it does not.  Theory busted.

2) The Earth is accelerating upwards at 9.8 m/s/s because of...magic pixie dust...whatever.   This would indeed reproduce all the effects of gravity.  Albert Einstein was kind enough to prove that equivalence in his General theory of relativity.   The first complaint of most RE'ers about this is that after a billion years of this acceleration, the world would be going faster than light and that's not possible...but enter Albert Einstein again - and because time/length and mass change for the people inside the moving Earth - any outside observer would see the earth's acceleration being slowed by the slowing passage of time as it goes faster - so it never exceeds light speed...and for people on the accelerating earth, there is no problem whatever.   The reason this theory cannot be true is that gravity is measurably different at the equator compared to the poles - and the earth can only accelerate at one rate without tearing itself apart.   So although this is by far the most popular FE theory on this forum, it's also BUSTED.

3) Gravity is present in the Flat Earth...this would be busted if the Earth were a neat little round disk because people close to the rim would be attracted towards the center...but members of this forum seem to believe that the Earth is infinite in extent - and if that's the case then gravity works just like in RE theory and all is well.   Moreover - the issues of gravity varying with altitude, at the poles and equator and near tall mountains all work perfectly providing the earth has a bit of a dimple where the pole is and a subtle bulge around the circular equator...but gravity works as an FE theory.   I'm not sure why it's not liked.
 
There are people here who believe that it's a mixture of acceleration and true gravity...which is messy.

All of them have trouble explaining tides.   These are caused in RET by the moon's gravity - but in FET, the moon is too small for that...but hey, maybe water likes the moon and gathers towards it or something.   Sadly, that idea doesn't explain why there are TWO high tides every day.

So...as others here have said - it's wise to read ALL of the Wiki before jumping in with criticisms of things that the FE community don't actually claim.

Yea, I was on this other flat earth forum and a lot of people thought it was density. I didn't want to write another wall of text. But that Earth accelerating idea? Just go up like 10k feet and with accurate enough instruments, the acceleration due to gravity would be less than 9.81m/s^2....And if gravity did exist and the plane was infinite, you would still fall towards the center of mass, which would be at the North Pole. So right now, I should be feeling a pretty strong effect of falling towards the North Pole.

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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2017, 01:51:45 AM »
2) The Earth is accelerating upwards at 9.8 m/s/s because of...magic pixie dust...whatever.   This would indeed reproduce all the effects of gravity.  Albert Einstein was kind enough to prove that equivalence in his General theory of relativity.   The first complaint of most RE'ers about this is that after a billion years of this acceleration, the world would be going faster than light and that's not possible...but enter Albert Einstein again - and because time/length and mass change for the people inside the moving Earth - any outside observer would see the earth's acceleration being slowed by the slowing passage of time as it goes faster - so it never exceeds light speed...and for people on the accelerating earth, there is no problem whatever.   The reason this theory cannot be true is that gravity is measurably different at the equator compared to the poles - and the earth can only accelerate at one rate without tearing itself apart.   So although this is by far the most popular FE theory on this forum, it's also BUSTED.

Well, since you used all capital letters, you must be right. It is clear you have done no research into UA, otherwise you would know that your points have literally been addressed. I would suggest you maybe do some research before you post again so you don't come off so ignorant. It would also probably be good if you refreshed yourself on acceleration and Special Relativity as well. It would help the conversation move forward.
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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2017, 03:11:23 AM »
2) The Earth is accelerating upwards at 9.8 m/s/s because of...magic pixie dust...whatever.   This would indeed reproduce all the effects of gravity.  Albert Einstein was kind enough to prove that equivalence in his General theory of relativity.   The first complaint of most RE'ers about this is that after a billion years of this acceleration, the world would be going faster than light and that's not possible...but enter Albert Einstein again - and because time/length and mass change for the people inside the moving Earth - any outside observer would see the earth's acceleration being slowed by the slowing passage of time as it goes faster - so it never exceeds light speed...and for people on the accelerating earth, there is no problem whatever.   The reason this theory cannot be true is that gravity is measurably different at the equator compared to the poles - and the earth can only accelerate at one rate without tearing itself apart.   So although this is by far the most popular FE theory on this forum, it's also BUSTED.

Well, since you used all capital letters, you must be right. It is clear you have done no research into UA, otherwise you would know that your points have literally been addressed. I would suggest you maybe do some research before you post again so you don't come off so ignorant. It would also probably be good if you refreshed yourself on acceleration and Special Relativity as well. It would help the conversation move forward.

Well do you actually have a reply to him?

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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2017, 03:57:20 AM »
Well do you actually have a reply to him?

Of course. It was in the post you quoted. I would suggest you go back and read the thread again if you are confused.

If there is something you want to debate, then feel free to make a point. Otherwise, I will ask you to refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the discussion.
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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2017, 03:59:15 AM »
Well do you actually have a reply to him?

Of course. It was in the post you quoted. I would suggest you go back and read the thread again if you are confused.

If there is something you want to debate, then feel free to make a point. Otherwise, I will ask you to refrain from making posts that do not contribute to the discussion.

All you said was "do research", you didn't actually reply to any of his points. Or mine. So, I'll ask YOU. What's the force that causes objects to accelerate to the ground?

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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2017, 04:05:38 AM »
All you said was "do research"
Yes, because everything that was posted has been covered in the wiki and in various threads on these very fora.

you didn't actually reply to any of his points.
False.

Or mine. So, I'll ask YOU. What's the force that causes objects to accelerate to the ground?
Ah, so you have not read the wiki either. That is apparent based on the very existence of this nonsensical thread. The entire thread is literally a strawman.
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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2017, 05:59:52 AM »
All you said was "do research"
Yes, because everything that was posted has been covered in the wiki and in various threads on these very fora.

you didn't actually reply to any of his points.
False.

Or mine. So, I'll ask YOU. What's the force that causes objects to accelerate to the ground?
Ah, so you have not read the wiki either. That is apparent based on the very existence of this nonsensical thread. The entire thread is literally a strawman.

I already replied to the UA. Go up 10k ft, and with precise enough instruments, the rate at which objects fall would be less than what you would expect at sea level. Hell, "g" also changes with location, since the earth isn't uniform and the value of "g" is less at the equator due to Earth's spin. If we took in account of this made up "UA", then the value of "g" should be CONSTANT. It ISN'T.

So what other argument do you have? Electromagnetism or something?

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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2017, 10:03:49 AM »
I already replied to the UA. Go up 10k ft, and with precise enough instruments, the rate at which objects fall would be less than what you would expect at sea level. Hell, "g" also changes with location, since the earth isn't uniform and the value of "g" is less at the equator due to Earth's spin. If we took in account of this made up "UA", then the value of "g" should be CONSTANT. It ISN'T.
No, it shouldn't. The heavens have a slight gravitational pull, which is not uniform.

If only you had read the basics before making a numpty out of yourself!
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Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2017, 02:36:24 AM »
I already replied to the UA. Go up 10k ft, and with precise enough instruments, the rate at which objects fall would be less than what you would expect at sea level. Hell, "g" also changes with location, since the earth isn't uniform and the value of "g" is less at the equator due to Earth's spin. If we took in account of this made up "UA", then the value of "g" should be CONSTANT. It ISN'T.
No, it shouldn't. The heavens have a slight gravitational pull, which is not uniform.

If only you had read the basics before making a numpty out of yourself!

Now you're saying that the heavens have a gravitational pull. Great, now the burden of proof is on you. Feel free to show me the evidence and the math, so that the decrease in the value of "g" is exactly as we would expect on a globe.

Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2017, 02:53:45 PM »
2) The Earth is accelerating upwards at 9.8 m/s/s because of...magic pixie dust...whatever.   This would indeed reproduce all the effects of gravity.  Albert Einstein was kind enough to prove that equivalence in his General theory of relativity.   The first complaint of most RE'ers about this is that after a billion years of this acceleration, the world would be going faster than light and that's not possible...but enter Albert Einstein again - and because time/length and mass change for the people inside the moving Earth - any outside observer would see the earth's acceleration being slowed by the slowing passage of time as it goes faster - so it never exceeds light speed...and for people on the accelerating earth, there is no problem whatever.   The reason this theory cannot be true is that gravity is measurably different at the equator compared to the poles - and the earth can only accelerate at one rate without tearing itself apart.   So although this is by far the most popular FE theory on this forum, it's also BUSTED.

Well, since you used all capital letters, you must be right. It is clear you have done no research into UA, otherwise you would know that your points have literally been addressed. I would suggest you maybe do some research before you post again so you don't come off so ignorant. It would also probably be good if you refreshed yourself on acceleration and Special Relativity as well. It would help the conversation move forward.

Well do you actually have a reply to him?

I couldn't find any explanation about gravity being lower at poles in the UA article of the wiki, can you please link me the explanation you were talking about ?
Thank you

Re: Flat Earth DEBUNKING BUOYANCY/DENSITY NONSENSE.
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2017, 10:10:33 AM »
2) The Earth is accelerating upwards at 9.8 m/s/s because of...magic pixie dust...whatever.   This would indeed reproduce all the effects of gravity.  Albert Einstein was kind enough to prove that equivalence in his General theory of relativity.   The first complaint of most RE'ers about this is that after a billion years of this acceleration, the world would be going faster than light and that's not possible...but enter Albert Einstein again - and because time/length and mass change for the people inside the moving Earth - any outside observer would see the earth's acceleration being slowed by the slowing passage of time as it goes faster - so it never exceeds light speed...and for people on the accelerating earth, there is no problem whatever.   The reason this theory cannot be true is that gravity is measurably different at the equator compared to the poles - and the earth can only accelerate at one rate without tearing itself apart.   So although this is by far the most popular FE theory on this forum, it's also BUSTED.

Well, since you used all capital letters, you must be right. It is clear you have done no research into UA, otherwise you would know that your points have literally been addressed. I would suggest you maybe do some research before you post again so you don't come off so ignorant. It would also probably be good if you refreshed yourself on acceleration and Special Relativity as well. It would help the conversation move forward.

Well do you actually have a reply to him?

I couldn't find any explanation about gravity being lower at poles in the UA article of the wiki, can you please link me the explanation you were talking about ?
Thank you

http://www.calpoly.edu/~gthorncr/ME302/documents/AccuracyofGravity.pdf

This is pretty well documented. The gravitational anomaly due to Earth's spin is .03%. You can actually measure this yourself if you have more than a $50 measuring scale, and a flight ticket to get around Earth.