Distance Experiment Idea?
« on: July 17, 2017, 11:53:54 PM »
In proving whether or not the Earth is flat can't we just do a simple distance test, assuming that any direction towards the perimeter of the Antarctic Ice Wall is south?

For example: If you have two points, both 100 miles north of the equator and 200 miles away from each other and both points travel south until they are 100 miles south of the equator and measure the distance between them. 

The thought behind this experiment is simple.  On the flat earth model each line of latitude is a larger circle and each line of longitude branches out from the north pole creating triangles.  If you draw horizontal lines through a triangle from top to bottom, you'll notice the lines get longer as you get further away from the top. 

If the earth is flat, the distance between these two travelers will increase as they follow their compass south and there distance between each other will be greater than the 200 miles it started from. If the earth is round the distance between these two points would be equivalent.  Measuring equidistant from the equator will eliminate and 'bulge' effect of the equator.



In this scenario the Earth is a globe and if we were to solve for X after the transformation of Y1 and Y2 to Y1' and Y2' x=200 miles, same as the starting distance



In the alternate scenario Earth is flat, and the distance between both points increases as we go south.  If X>200 miles it would prove the flat earth theory.


What do you guys think about that? Is this a feasible idea?

Offline Smokified

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2017, 12:32:41 AM »
In proving whether or not the Earth is flat can't we just do a simple distance test, assuming that any direction towards the perimeter of the Antarctic Ice Wall is south?

For example: If you have two points, both 100 miles north of the equator and 200 miles away from each other and both points travel south until they are 100 miles south of the equator and measure the distance between them. 

The thought behind this experiment is simple.  On the flat earth model each line of latitude is a larger circle and each line of longitude branches out from the north pole creating triangles.  If you draw horizontal lines through a triangle from top to bottom, you'll notice the lines get longer as you get further away from the top. 

If the earth is flat, the distance between these two travelers will increase as they follow their compass south and there distance between each other will be greater than the 200 miles it started from. If the earth is round the distance between these two points would be equivalent.  Measuring equidistant from the equator will eliminate and 'bulge' effect of the equator.



In this scenario the Earth is a globe and if we were to solve for X after the transformation of Y1 and Y2 to Y1' and Y2' x=200 miles, same as the starting distance



In the alternate scenario Earth is flat, and the distance between both points increases as we go south.  If X>200 miles it would prove the flat earth theory.


What do you guys think about that? Is this a feasible idea?


You will never find a flat earther that is willing to actually prove the earth is flat.  In doing so they would have to admit the earth is indeed not flat.  Even they know it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea:
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2017, 03:46:31 AM »
That sounds like a good idea. Mission approved. Report back to us with your findings.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2017, 03:53:55 PM »
In proving whether or not the Earth is flat can't we just do a simple distance test, assuming that any direction towards the perimeter of the Antarctic Ice Wall is south?

...

What do you guys think about that? Is this a feasible idea?

You don't really need to go to all that trouble.   Do this:

* Go to Google Maps.
* Type in "Santiago, Chile", hit enter.
* Click "Directions"
* Type in "Sydney, Australia", hit enter.

It tells you that Qantas airlines will fly you direct (4 flights per week) taking 12h 15min...and it draws you a map, showing you'd be flying West-to-East.

Now (just for grins) click the up/down arrow icon up where you entered your start and end point.  Now it tells you that to get from Sandiago, back to Sydney takes 13hr 45 min...but the route is the same.

OK, so I could tell you how to get onto the Qantas site and confirm all of this - but I'm sure you can figure that out if you're mega-sceptical.

Now - go to a regular Google search window and type: "distance sydney to sandiago chile"  (make sure it's "sandiago chile" and not "san diego"!) 11340 km.

So the plane is flying West/East at a speed of 11,340/12.25 = 925 kph...which is 575mph.  On the East/West return trip, it's 824kph or 512mph.  The difference is because the prevailing winds in the southern hemisphere blows west-to-east, so there is a tail-wind on the outbound leg and a head wind on the way back.

Phew.  OK - so we can look up the data for a 747-400 (that's what Qantas fly on that route)...the Wikipedia page says with maximum payload it can fly 14,200km non-stop (so it can make the 11,340km trip with a healthy safety margin)...and it's cruise speed is 933kph...which is a little faster than we calculated - but commercial flight times are always padded by a little bit to allow for takeoff and landing times, etc.

This all seems very self-consistent doesn't it.

Trouble is, in the FE map - the distance from Sydney to Sandiago Chile is a lot more than that.   FE map distances are the same as RE map distances on North/South routes - but differ wildly from RE distances on East/West routes - and increasingly so the further south you go.

So on both a round and a flat earth map, 11,300 km is about the distance from Johannesburg (South Africa) to Venice (italy).

 Now...from the TFES.org Wiki (with some overlays of my own):



So - each red line (pretty much North/South from Venice to Johannesburg) must be about 11,000 km on both RE and FE maps.
The green line represents the 14,200km range of a 747-400 airplane.

It's rather clear that if the airplane takes the route that Google says it does - and how the flight would go if the pilot uses a compass or a GPS to follow what he believes to be the shortest RE distance, then on the FE map, the curved route is over three and a half times the distance he'd have to fly if the Earth is round.

Even if he takes a "short cut" over North America - he needs three times the distance.

Clearly he can't be taking that short cut because I'm quite sure people on the plane would look out of the window and notice that nearly half of the trip was over land...and every air traffic controller along the way would be surprised at a Qantas flight over their airspace at that time!

Qantas also fly non-stop to South Africa - and almost the exact same problem happens there.

So the FE map on the Wiki simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny...and you don't need to do the experiment you describe because Qantas airlines do eight flights (four each way) every week.

The ONLY semi-plausible answers from FE'ers on this is are:

1) That the jet stream speeds the aircraft up...but that's ridiculous because it can't possibly speed it up in BOTH directions.
2) That this map is only an approximation, and...meh.  But there isn't a way to fix this...either this distance is wildly wrong - or some other distance is off by a similar amount.
3) There is a "new" map - which includes antarctica as a separate continent - basically, this one:
   
This actually makes the West-to-East route for Qantas even longer - and the short-cut takes them over antarctica...but Australians are going to have to learn all new geography.

So...yeah...a bit of googling around and the problem for the FE'ers is clear.   How can you POSSIBLY explain your way out of this one?

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea:
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2017, 08:13:18 PM »
That sounds like a good idea. Mission approved. Report back to us with your findings.

Tom,
Please explain the post by 3d above this one.  Flight times in the southern hemisphere are the best and most probable case for a globe. 
The distance from New York to Paris is unknown.

I do not have the bandwidth to maintain a conversation with you.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2017, 12:48:52 AM »
What am I supposed to explain? I was given a flight prediction for a flight time which might occur, not a flight record, and two proposed hypothetical map possibilities for a Flat Earth which are currently being investigated. The argument made seems a little weak,.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 03:11:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Smokified

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2017, 03:09:20 AM »
What am I supposed to explain? I was given a flight prediction for a flight time which might occur, not a flight record, and two proposed hypothetical map possibilities for a Flat Earth which is currently being investigated. The argument made seems a little weak,.

What is still being investigated?  There are plenty of flight records that show that you are completely 100% wrong.

There is not a flat earth map that makes sense because the earth is not flat.  How much more obvious does it need to be?

Currently being investigated....are you serious?  Wow.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2017, 03:12:53 AM »
What is still being investigated?  There are plenty of flight records that show that you are completely 100% wrong.

What flight records? None have been posted. And how do they prove a map which does not exist wrong?

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Offline ErnestV1

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2017, 11:00:19 AM »
In proving whether or not the Earth is flat can't we just do a simple distance test, assuming that any direction towards the perimeter of the Antarctic Ice Wall is south?

For example: If you have two points, both 100 miles north of the equator and 200 miles away from each other and both points travel south until they are 100 miles south of the equator and measure the distance between them. 

The thought behind this experiment is simple.  On the flat earth model each line of latitude is a larger circle and each line of longitude branches out from the north pole creating triangles.  If you draw horizontal lines through a triangle from top to bottom, you'll notice the lines get longer as you get further away from the top. 

If the earth is flat, the distance between these two travelers will increase as they follow their compass south and there distance between each other will be greater than the 200 miles it started from. If the earth is round the distance between these two points would be equivalent.  Measuring equidistant from the equator will eliminate and 'bulge' effect of the equator.



In this scenario the Earth is a globe and if we were to solve for X after the transformation of Y1 and Y2 to Y1' and Y2' x=200 miles, same as the starting distance



In the alternate scenario Earth is flat, and the distance between both points increases as we go south.  If X>200 miles it would prove the flat earth theory.


What do you guys think about that? Is this a feasible idea?


Let us refine this experiment a little. 1st, what medium of travel shall we use. By land may be difficult to find enough land to acurately measure 200 miles East/West @ 100 miles north of the equator, then 200 miles south from both y1 and y2 to y1' and y2' including enough land between the southern points to measure separation distance once again. Therefore we may well have to resort to using sea or air media for our travel, both of which would either rely on measured rate of travel v. time which in either media is not exactly accurate giving one side or the other room to deny the results... or upon GPS signal, which for RE is quite satisfactory, but for FE the existence of satellite based GPS presents dubious data at best and flat out lies at worst.

So how do we propose to come to an arrangement that is both feasible as well as agreeable to both camps if suitable land-based travel arrangements cannot be found?
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Offline ErnestV1

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #9 on: July 19, 2017, 11:04:01 AM »
What is still being investigated?  There are plenty of flight records that show that you are completely 100% wrong.

What flight records? None have been posted. And how do they prove a map which does not exist wrong?

Ah, so even though the globe folded out with North at the center and South at the perimeter is often shown as the FE model, there is not 'official' map for the FE society. Am I right?

That is either most convenient, or most unfortunate.
I love how the sun shines on the bottom of the clouds and sunrise and sunset!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #10 on: July 19, 2017, 11:55:27 AM »
Ah, so even though the globe folded out with North at the center and South at the perimeter is often shown as the FE model, there is not 'official' map for the FE society. Am I right?

That is either most convenient, or most unfortunate.

They are just projections of the globe that someone found and presented as a possible Flat Earth map for further investigation. The distortion of the continents gives away that it's a projection of a globe.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #11 on: July 19, 2017, 05:13:42 PM »
What is still being investigated?  There are plenty of flight records that show that you are completely 100% wrong.

What flight records? None have been posted. And how do they prove a map which does not exist wrong?

How about a flight that is happening right now?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SAA281

South African Airways 281
SAA281 / SA281
EN ROUTE AND ON TIME
Arriving in over 9 hours

Speed   445 mph (Planned: 544 mph)   
Altitude   32,000 ft (Planned: 32,000 ft)
Distance Planned: 4,851 mi (Direct: 5,169 mi)

https://www.google.com/search?q=South+African+Airways+281&oq=South+African+Airways+281&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Please provide an  FE map that would allow any of the above to happen.



The distance from New York to Paris is unknown.

I do not have the bandwidth to maintain a conversation with you.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2017, 05:32:36 PM »
Ah, so even though the globe folded out with North at the center and South at the perimeter is often shown as the FE model, there is not 'official' map for the FE society. Am I right?

That is either most convenient, or most unfortunate.

They are just projections of the globe that someone found and presented as a possible Flat Earth map for further investigation. The distortion of the continents gives away that it's a projection of a globe.

Yes - but the mathematics of topology absolutely guarantees that you'll never find a flat map projection that will simultaneously have distances between locations that major airlines fly to that will agree with the times, distances and airplane ranges that they have on their daily schedules.

You're NEVER going to be able to find such a flat map.  Mathematics proves that.

To reconcile FET with airline schedules, you're just going to have to dump all of the airlines (and their pilots and a large fraction of their passengers) into the "conspiracy theory" bucket where all inconvenient facts wind up.

I'm sure you've read my posts (and others) about the Qantas airlines flights from Sydney Australia to Santiago Chile that require the airplane to more than double it's maximum flight range and to triple it's maximum speed to around Mach 2.1.   The "old" map was pretty bad - but your new one is even more crazy.   The shortest flight distance/time is now even longer than it was before - and requires you to fly over the continental USA and the entire length of South America.

But do you truly not understand that there is no flat map you can possibly ever generate that will fix those kinds of problems?   If you find a map that fixes Sydney/Santiago - it'll break for some other flight route...and you know I'll keep finding them no matter how you distort your map.

You have the unassailable problem that published airline schedules (which they mostly are able to stick to) ONLY work if the world is round.

Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2017, 06:01:29 PM »
What is still being investigated?  There are plenty of flight records that show that you are completely 100% wrong.

What flight records? None have been posted. And how do they prove a map which does not exist wrong?

What in the world are you talking about ?

Of course flight records are kept by the airlines and the government aviation agencies such as the FAA in the USA.
They prove the distances and times are accurate.

Most flights are on time and the records agree with the times published on the timetables or schedules. . Of course there are delays , but they are usually caused by weather conditions.

The flat earth argument about schedules and records could be applied to ships on the seas. Ships do keep records you know. They are called "Logs."
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 07:54:54 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2017, 07:27:06 PM »
What is still being investigated?  There are plenty of flight records that show that you are completely 100% wrong.

What flight records? None have been posted. And how do they prove a map which does not exist wrong?

How about a flight that is happening right now?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SAA281

South African Airways 281
SAA281 / SA281
EN ROUTE AND ON TIME
Arriving in over 9 hours

Speed   445 mph (Planned: 544 mph)   
Altitude   32,000 ft (Planned: 32,000 ft)
Distance Planned: 4,851 mi (Direct: 5,169 mi)

https://www.google.com/search?q=South+African+Airways+281&oq=South+African+Airways+281&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Please provide an  FE map that would allow any of the above to happen.


Hey Tom, where did you go?  This is a simple question.  Please answer.
The distance from New York to Paris is unknown.

I do not have the bandwidth to maintain a conversation with you.

Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2017, 07:44:04 PM »
What am I supposed to explain? I was given a flight prediction for a flight time which might occur, not a flight record, and two proposed hypothetical map possibilities for a Flat Earth which is currently being investigated. The argument made seems a little weak,.

What is still being investigated?  There are plenty of flight records that show that you are completely 100% wrong.

There is not a flat earth map that makes sense because the earth is not flat.  How much more obvious does it need to be?

Currently being investigated....are you serious?  Wow.

How much more obvious does it need to be that there is no such thing as a flat earth map which is accurate in size, shape and distance because the earth is not flat. Because the earth is a globe.
How much more obvious does in need to because both maps -  Unipolar and  Bipolar - are not accurate and have distortions because they are projections of the globe. Because the earth is a globe.
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2017, 08:17:11 PM »
What is still being investigated?  There are plenty of flight records that show that you are completely 100% wrong.

What flight records? None have been posted. And how do they prove a map which does not exist wrong?

How about a flight that is happening right now?

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/SAA281

South African Airways 281
SAA281 / SA281
EN ROUTE AND ON TIME
Arriving in over 9 hours

Speed   445 mph (Planned: 544 mph)   
Altitude   32,000 ft (Planned: 32,000 ft)
Distance Planned: 4,851 mi (Direct: 5,169 mi)

https://www.google.com/search?q=South+African+Airways+281&oq=South+African+Airways+281&aqs=chrome..69i57j69i61&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8


Please provide an  FE map that would allow any of the above to happen.

What about it? Flat Earth maps are currently under investigation. If you have some data to contribute I would suggest starting a formal thread to collect such information to share.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2017, 09:07:06 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2017, 09:07:25 PM »
What is still being investigated?  There are plenty of flight records that show that you are completely 100% wrong.

What flight records? None have been posted. And how do they prove a map which does not exist wrong?

What in the world are you talking about ?

Of course flight records are kept by the airlines and the government aviation agencies such as the FAA in the USA.
They prove the distances and times are accurate.

Most flights are on time and the records agree with the times published on the timetables or schedules. . Of course there are delays , but they are usually caused by weather conditions.

The flat earth argument about schedules and records could be applied to ships on the seas. Ships do keep records you know. They are called "Logs."

If you have any valuable information to share, I would suggest making a thread about it. I have not seen you post anything of value to the model, and I will request that you stop wasting our time with vague references to data you assume proves you to be right.

Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2017, 09:48:29 PM »
You should all stop letting Tom troll you. I have and I'm better off for it.

For the OP, your question presumes that there is an Antarctic ice wall. I'm not saying that you're promoting that as fact, just pointing out that it's in there. The wall is an FE fantasy. In this video shot by a tourist (whom I trust is not lying about the location) the shoreline of Antarctica is shown to be rocky. This is most clear around 0:40-0:45 where humans can be seen in the background giving a sense of scale and disproving the existence of any "wall". The uploader has dozens of videos from his trip to the planet's southernmost continent, and an obvious affinity for penguins.

Re: Distance Experiment Idea?
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2017, 10:59:35 PM »
What about it? Flat Earth maps are currently under investigation. If you have some data to contribute I would suggest starting a formal thread to collect such information to share. *
The contribution is that the investigation on the Flat Earth maps can conclusively end thanks to the airline data provided here and accessible online.  Because of this data, all current Flat Earth map proposals are known to be false.   Not slightly off,  not an approximate representation, but fundamentally flawed.  This is a significant contribution to help the members of this forum and society discover and accept the truth about the shape of the Earth.  The data and it's application is not presented to antagonize or mislead, it is presented as factual information that help us accept truth and disregard falsehood.

*emphasis added by myself
The foundation of any Path is learning to accept the world as it is, not as you wish or even observe it to be. -Will Wight