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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #40 on: July 26, 2017, 09:01:26 PM »
What I stated is all laid out right here and I'm not speaking about Babylonia as a whole, but the astronomers and astrologers of the time. Even in Greece the idea of a round Earth was (at least early on) largely a view among the higher educated populace. At least based on what I've read while looking into this.

The cosmology clearly describes a Flat Earth. The cosmology is depicted in several of their texts. Why would you assume that their astronomers believed in a Round Earth? We will need some sort of evidence that the "astronomers and astrologers" of the time believed in something contrary to their published cosmology.

Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #41 on: July 26, 2017, 09:06:44 PM »
What I stated is all laid out right here and I'm not speaking about Babylonia as a whole, but the astronomers and astrologers of the time. Even in Greece the idea of a round Earth was (at least early on) largely a view among the higher educated populace. At least based on what I've read while looking into this.

The cosmology clearly describes a Flat Earth. The cosmology is depicted in several of their texts. Why would their astronomy depict a Round Earth while society believed in a Flat Earth? We will need some sort of evidence that the "astronomers and astrologers" of the time believed in something contrary to their published cosmology.
Did you follow the link? Should have taken you directly to the Neo-Babylonian astronomy, which contained the Saros cycle discovery, and the explanation that our only surviving model depicts heliocentric, which has a round Earth. Above it also notes that Cosmology and Astronomy were separate things within Babylonia, which could explain the disconnect, not to mention the fact Saros (and somewhat the heliocentric model) were a 'late in life' discovery for the culture.
FET - A few old books making claims and telling you how things must be based on the words contained therein. This sounds familiar....

The triangle doesn't work

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #42 on: July 26, 2017, 09:14:54 PM »
What I stated is all laid out right here and I'm not speaking about Babylonia as a whole, but the astronomers and astrologers of the time. Even in Greece the idea of a round Earth was (at least early on) largely a view among the higher educated populace. At least based on what I've read while looking into this.

The cosmology clearly describes a Flat Earth. The cosmology is depicted in several of their texts. Why would their astronomy depict a Round Earth while society believed in a Flat Earth? We will need some sort of evidence that the "astronomers and astrologers" of the time believed in something contrary to their published cosmology.
Did you follow the link? Should have taken you directly to the Neo-Babylonian astronomy, which contained the Saros cycle discovery, and the explanation that our only surviving model depicts heliocentric, which has a round Earth. Above it also notes that Cosmology and Astronomy were separate things within Babylonia, which could explain the disconnect, not to mention the fact Saros (and somewhat the heliocentric model) were a 'late in life' discovery for the culture.

Our Flat Earth models are also Heliocentric. Heliocentric has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. It just means "sun at the center" and has to do with the sun being the center of rotation for the planets, as an explanation for their movements.

Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #43 on: July 26, 2017, 09:20:39 PM »
What I stated is all laid out right here and I'm not speaking about Babylonia as a whole, but the astronomers and astrologers of the time. Even in Greece the idea of a round Earth was (at least early on) largely a view among the higher educated populace. At least based on what I've read while looking into this.

The cosmology clearly describes a Flat Earth. The cosmology is depicted in several of their texts. Why would their astronomy depict a Round Earth while society believed in a Flat Earth? We will need some sort of evidence that the "astronomers and astrologers" of the time believed in something contrary to their published cosmology.
Did you follow the link? Should have taken you directly to the Neo-Babylonian astronomy, which contained the Saros cycle discovery, and the explanation that our only surviving model depicts heliocentric, which has a round Earth. Above it also notes that Cosmology and Astronomy were separate things within Babylonia, which could explain the disconnect, not to mention the fact Saros (and somewhat the heliocentric model) were a 'late in life' discovery for the culture.

Our Flat Earth models are also Heliocentric. Heliocentric has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. It just means "sun at the center" and has to do with the sun being the center of rotation for the planets, as an explanation for their movements.
What FE model is Heliocentric? Every one I've seen has the sun scribing an orbit through the 'sky'/space above Earth. The Earth does not move about the sun in that model. That would not be heliocentric, but you could call it an off shoot I suppose.

Again though, why I mentioned Seleucus of Seleucia as the main standard listed there. His model has the Earth rotating about it's axis, and then circling the sun.
FET - A few old books making claims and telling you how things must be based on the words contained therein. This sounds familiar....

The triangle doesn't work

Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #44 on: July 26, 2017, 10:32:10 PM »
Our Flat Earth models are also Heliocentric. Heliocentric has nothing to do with the shape of the earth. It just means "sun at the center" and has to do with the sun being the center of rotation for the planets, as an explanation for their movements.

Damn Tom, you're not even trying any more. That's no fun.

The Earth doesn't go around the sun in any FE model I'm aware of. Perhaps you could illuminate me. (With a spotlight?)

All of the known Heliocentric models [ie]xplicitly[/i] involve the Earth being just another planet revolving around the sun. Not one of them - from Aristarchus to Copernicus to Galilei to Newton to even Descartes, described a flat Earth upon which the other stuff swirled around (via incoherently explained and contradictory mechanisms while invoking answers to big questions with words like "Firmament" and "Celestial Gears"). They excplicitly described the Earth as just another planet (which they described as spherical - and few people believed in a flat Earth in antiquity anyway - I guess the conspiracy goes way, way back).

https://www.britannica.com/topic/heliocentric-system

So Tom, I've always wondered how or why you are so deeply enamored with the insufferably arrogant, unnecessarily flowery text of a 19th-century snake-oil salesman, who did nothing but make a series of confident but utterly unsupported assertions, each building on - and more silly than - the last - amounting to nothing more than supposition; while inventing rickety ad-hoc hyptotheses on top of ad-hoc hypotheses... all to arrive at conclusions such as, the oceans are supported by steam from the fires of hades? How does someone clearly smart enough to operate a computer fall for such nonsense? (But then, they are your "sacred texts" and you are looking for a "messiah". This s*** gets weirder every year.) I mean, if you want to believe in a flat earth, believe in a flat earth. But every time you reference Robotham, I think somewhere an angel is raped. Or at minimum, you lose credibility.

And yet, you casually disregard the even more ancient writings of sober people that weren't clearly having schizophrenic episodes?

Sheesh. Like I said, this isn't even fun anymore.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #45 on: July 26, 2017, 11:16:38 PM »
Heliocentric simply means that the planets revolve around the sun. The Flat Earth solar system is Heliocentric. The planets revolve around the sun.

The main difference is that under the Round Earth model the earth is a planet in the solar system, and the earth is therefore part of the Heliocentric system. However, under the Flat Earth model the earth is not a planet and is not in the solar system, and therefore the earth is not part of the Heliocentric solar system above it.

Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #46 on: July 26, 2017, 11:47:23 PM »
Heliocentric simply means that the planets revolve around the sun. The Flat Earth solar system is Heliocentric. The planets revolve around the sun.

The main difference is that under the Round Earth model the earth is a planet in the solar system, and the earth is therefore part of the Heliocentric system. However, under the Flat Earth model the earth is not a planet and is not in the solar system, and therefore the earth is not part of the Heliocentric solar system above it.
I knew you were going to say that as soon as I posted my response. Respond to Joe please. You're claiming FE to be heliocentric, because the Earth is not a planet. You claim the Earth is not a planet because....yeah, I still don't understand how you claim that. As best I've gotten is that the Earth isn't a planet because it's flat. But why the Earth doesn't conform to literally every other observable body in the universe for structure? Don't think I've read anything in your wiki on that one.

Every (other if I must) heliocentric system is explicit in the fact that Earth too revolves around the sun. FE is NOT a heliocentric system.

You're also avoiding the subject, that the Babylonian's of the era and occupation that gave us the Saros cycle, appear to have believed in a round Earth model. So explain the relevancy of the age of the Saros cycle, in that context. You love to bring it up, but the people who made it believed in a round Earth.
FET - A few old books making claims and telling you how things must be based on the words contained therein. This sounds familiar....

The triangle doesn't work

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Online junker

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Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2017, 03:58:07 PM »

Like I said. It's not even fun anymore. I don't know if you're losing your edge over the years or what - but this is really tedious. It's not even a Tom Bishop post anymore without some cutesy "gotcha", exit plan in case you get cornered, or back door to wiggle out of - and never an intellectual commitment to a single conjecture, lest it have holes poked in it and/or experimentally debunked.

Debating Tom is kind of like showing up to a gentleman's boxing match - rested and prepared, and with well-defined ethical rules of the bout...only to face off with a cowardly little fat little man who gets naked and smears grease all over himself, and does nothing but scurry about putting buckets of paint on top of ladders and lighting bags of dog poop on fire, giggling at his cleverness all the while.

You are pushing it. If you want to bitch about Tom, do it in AR or CN. But you are not going to continue to derail discussions in the upper fora. Warned (again).
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Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2017, 05:06:45 PM »
You are pushing it. If you want to bitch about Tom, do it in AR or CN. But you are not going to continue to derail discussions in the upper fora. Warned (again).

I must have missed it, what was the first warning?

Let me ask you an honest question: do you actually believe you have "power" on this dank little corner of the internet? You speak like you're trying to come off like you believe someone who speaks with authority would sound. Which is both funny and sad. (But mostly indifferent.) I try to conduct myself with decency and attack ideas not people (not always successfully) - because I try to not be a jerk, even anonymously. If anyone points out that I'm being a jerk, then that's not really up to me to disagree with, is it - and I offer thanks for pointing it out and adjust accordingly. (And as such, your observations are duly noted.) But the idea that some guy I don't know - with laughably absurd, rigidly dogmatic beliefs and an insufferably pedantic "communication" style - whom has earned the opposite of "respect", might ban me from a forum where nothing productive happens and is a huge time suck on humanity...is not as "threatening" as your daddy-tone seems to indicate that you believe.

Here's a tip: be a decent human being and ask others to behave like decent human beings when you think they aren't. Your role and software-based authority as a moderator is already understood.

Good day.

Sir!

Feel free to check replies to your posts to see where I have warned you (twice so far). Your derailing posts have been moved to the appropriate forum. Please refrain from arguing moderation in threads where you were warned. It only serves to further derail the thread. If you have an issue, post it in the appropriate place. I am moving this post as well and giving you one final warning. Next one is a 3-day ban.

It has nothing to do with me having "power" and everything to do with you failing to follow simple rules.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2017, 05:15:20 PM by junker »
Please make sure to check out these resources to ensure that your time at tfes.org is enjoyable and productive.

1. The Rules

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Offline Stu

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Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #49 on: July 28, 2017, 04:37:34 AM »
The cosmology clearly describes a Flat Earth. The cosmology is depicted in several of their texts. Why would you assume that their astronomers believed in a Round Earth? We will need some sort of evidence that the "astronomers and astrologers" of the time believed in something contrary to their published cosmology.

Talk is cheap. Let's see those references.

Here's the references for the opposite of what you said.

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Offline Merkava

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Re: Help me, I'm being deceived
« Reply #50 on: August 04, 2017, 03:14:50 AM »

Like I said. It's not even fun anymore. I don't know if you're losing your edge over the years or what - but this is really tedious. It's not even a Tom Bishop post anymore without some cutesy "gotcha", exit plan in case you get cornered, or back door to wiggle out of - and never an intellectual commitment to a single conjecture, lest it have holes poked in it and/or experimentally debunked.

Debating Tom is kind of like showing up to a gentleman's boxing match - rested and prepared, and with well-defined ethical rules of the bout...only to face off with a cowardly little fat little man who gets naked and smears grease all over himself, and does nothing but scurry about putting buckets of paint on top of ladders and lighting bags of dog poop on fire, giggling at his cleverness all the while.

You are pushing it. If you want to bitch about Tom, do it in AR or CN. But you are not going to continue to derail discussions in the upper fora. Warned (again).
#fundthematch
#mymoneyonJoe
Forum needs thumbs up vote.
Is it really too much effort to visualize in your head a light rolling around the middle of a plate isn't going to be "east" or "west" of anything it touches EVER?