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Offline Parsifal

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2017 Dutch general election
« on: November 25, 2016, 09:48:59 PM »
On 15 March next year, the Netherlands will go to the polls and decide their next government. Recent developments have made this look likely to become as big of a deal as Brexit or Trump.

Currently, if the polls are to be believed, the most likely next Prime Minister of the Netherlands is Geert Wilders, leader of the Party for Freedom (PVV, Partij voor de Vrijheid). Among their policies are holding a legally binding referendum on Nexit (a Netherlands exit from the EU), restricting immigration from Islamic countries, and denationalising and deporting dual nationals who commit serious crimes. Wilders has recently seen a popularity boost after being prosecuted for making "racist" comments about Moroccan immigrants -- specifically, asking his supporters if they want to see fewer of them.

His most likely (and only serious) opposition is Mark Rutte, the current incumbent. Rutte leads the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy (VVD, Volkspartij voor Vrijheid en Democratie), a fairly moderate centre-right party. Sadly, like many incumbent powers across Europe, VVD has largely ignored the current immigration crisis, though I like basically all of their other policies.

Because of the way the Dutch electoral system works, no one party has ever had an outright majority in the Second Chamber (Tweede Kamer, analogous to the UK House of Commons or the US House of Representatives). This means that whoever of Wilders or Rutte becomes Prime Minister, they are very likely to need to work with the other to form a coalition government. I say "likely" because there is the possibility that either one could work with other, smaller parties instead.

Either way, it will be interesting to see what happens regarding Nexit. It will be even more difficult for the Netherlands to leave the EU than it is for the UK, because they are also a part of the Eurozone and the Schengen Agreement. Most of PVV's other policies hinge on a successful Nexit, since they require autonomy over the Dutch immigration policy.

I'll post some more background information on the parties involved here when I have time.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2016, 09:54:44 PM by Parsifal »
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Offline Dionysios

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #1 on: November 25, 2016, 11:46:41 PM »
...It will be even more difficult for the Netherlands to leave the EU than it is for the UK, because they are also a part of the Eurozone and the Schengen Agreement.

German capitalists use things like the Schengen agreement to make the European Union attractive and focus attention away from their control of it. The EU is a social democratic (i.e. social fascist) alternative to Nazism which serves the same master and has the same objectives. The Dutch also had a difficult time asserting their national sovereignty to the Germans in the early 1940's.

Anyone who doubts that the EU is a Trojan horse of fascism should look at the plethora of racist scapegoating politicians in Europe who these days use Muslims in place of Jews - just like Trump.

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2016, 12:03:29 AM »
Anyone who doubts that the EU is a Trojan horse of fascism should look at the plethora of racist scapegoating politicians in Europe who these days use Muslims in place of Jews - just like Trump.

This makes absolutely no sense. Aside from the fact that Islam is not a race, European politicians, like Wilders, who are opposed to Muslim immigration are generally also opposed to the EU.
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Offline Dionysios

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2016, 05:14:46 AM »
My point is that my impression is scapegoating of Muslims seems almost common these days among politicians in multiple European countries. 

Forgive me for speaking so openly, but when I hear talk about banning immigration specifically from Muslim countries allegedly not being racist because Islam is not a race, I begin to reassess the source of what I'm hearing as analogous in quality to the dissimulations of a Goebbels or an American military public affairs officer.

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2016, 02:21:21 PM »
My point is that my impression is scapegoating of Muslims seems almost common these days among politicians in multiple European countries.

That wasn't your point at all. You were specifically talking about the EU, an institution those politicians are opposed to. Feel free to retract that point and pose a more rational one instead, but don't try to claim you were saying something else all along.

Forgive me for speaking so openly, but when I hear talk about banning immigration specifically from Muslim countries allegedly not being racist because Islam is not a race, I begin to reassess the source of what I'm hearing as analogous in quality to the dissimulations of a Goebbels or an American military public affairs officer.

Why, do they also use words based on their actual definitions?
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Offline Dionysios

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2016, 04:53:12 PM »
Currently, if the polls are to be believed, the most likely next Prime Minister of the Netherlands is Geert Wilders, leader of the Party for Freedom (PVV, Partij voor de Vrijheid). Among their policies are holding a legally binding referendum on Nexit (a Netherlands exit from the EU), restricting immigration from Islamic countries, and denationalising and deporting dual nationals who commit serious crimes. Wilders has recently seen a popularity boost after being prosecuted for making "racist" comments about Moroccan immigrants -- specifically, asking his supporters if they want to see fewer of them.

His most likely (and only serious) opposition is Mark Rutte, the current incumbent. Rutte leads the People's Party for Freedom and Democracy

On the bigger picture, the trends evidenced by the whole scenario brings to mind a comment by Ana Pauker (of pre-Caesescu Romania) that Germany would not invade Russia again unless it was reunited and had the backing of the United States.

Offline Dionysios

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2016, 05:06:23 PM »
That wasn't your point at all. You were specifically talking about the EU, an institution those politicians are opposed to. Feel free to retract that point and pose a more rational one instead, but don't try to claim you were saying something else all along.
...
Why, do they also use words based on their actual definitions?
As I disagree with all of the above and we cannot get past this point, then I would say I would agree to disagree.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2016, 09:36:02 PM »
You want to "agree to disagree" after you made statements so laughably false that you clearly don't have even rudimentary knowledge of European politics? It would be pretty embarrassing to "agree to disagree" at this point. At least have the courtesy of conceding.

Geert will win in the Netherlands. Maybe Le Pen will win in France, but her chances are dwindling.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2016, 09:39:51 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2016, 09:37:59 AM »
PVV is another 3 seats ahead in today's Peil poll.

https://www.noties.nl/v/get.php?a=peil.nl&s=weekpoll&f=2016-11-27.pdf

Of particular interest is the third table (at the top of page 2). However divided the Dutch population may be on his policies, 71% of them believe that a guilty verdict against Wilders will increase his party's popularity. Everyone can see it, it seems, except his prosecutors.

When will people learn that trying to silence political opposition doesn't work?
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Offline Dionysios

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2016, 01:17:50 PM »
From the moment I read the opening post, I had a suspicion that in addition to obviously some bourgeois in their own countries, fascist and racist politicians such as Wilders or Greece's Golden Dawn have also been sponsored by German and American sources which are not at all opposed to the European Union, and there seems to be evidence of this.

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/geert-wilders-dutch-anti-muslim-party-forced-reveal-us-donor

Whether they individually believe it or not, I suspect that many far right European politicians use Eurosceptic rhetoric because they would otherwise have a significantly less following, but actions speak louder the words. In Greece, Golden Dawn members have murdered anti-EU and anti-austerity activists.

One of the more interesting aspects about fascist politicians is their allies. Golden Dawn criminals have gotten lighter treatment from the law than leftists do for far inferior crimes. The Weimar Republic likewise treated Hitler the same way as did pre-Franco Spain's government did to the fascist criminals there.

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2016, 01:21:30 PM »
Can we please not make every second post in this thread about Hitler? If you're going to criticise Wilders, then criticise his policies instead of calling him names, and certainly don't start derailing the discussion towards irrelevant actions by unrelated parties in other countries.
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Offline Dionysios

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2016, 01:29:26 PM »
The Southern Poverty Law Center's page on David Horowitz, one of Wilder's American financial backers:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/david-horowitz

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2016, 01:32:53 PM »
The Southern Poverty Law Center's page on David Horowitz, one of Wilder's American financial backers:

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/david-horowitz

Is there something about this page in particular that you find troubling?
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2016, 10:09:28 AM »
I don't know much about Dutch politics but what little I do know is that I wouldn't want Geert Wilders anywhere near the reins of power.

Judging purely by which European and Global parties they belong to, my vote would probably go to GroenLinks.

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2016, 10:49:26 AM »
I don't know much about Dutch politics but what little I do know is that I wouldn't want Geert Wilders anywhere near the reins of power.

In an ideal world, he wouldn't need to be. Unfortunately, he (along with other populist leaders throughout Europe) may be the wake-up call the establishment needs, like Brexit and Trump before them.

Judging purely by which European and Global parties they belong to, my vote would probably go to GroenLinks.

I'd rather have Wilders as dictator for life than a single term of GroenLinks.
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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2016, 11:53:14 AM »
There is a shift to the right across the world now, in reaction to institutions such as the EU rather than in support, the German Afd wants the dissolution of the Euro-zone because of its historical support of immigration and liberal reforms such as gay marriage, there is much wrong with the EU, but a “Trojan Horse for fascism” it isn’t.



I'd rather have Wilders as dictator for life than a single term of GroenLinks.

Saving the Earth? Over my dead body.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

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Offline SexWarrior

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #16 on: November 28, 2016, 07:24:23 PM »
Saving the Earth? Over my dead body.
An astounding amount of "green" organisations and political parties are actual threats to sustainability. Perhaps unsurprisingly, GroenLinks is a great example.
<Parsifal> Jesus Christ
<Parsifal> Do I really have to write 6000-word sentences just to remove all ambiguity from everything I'm saying?

Where live, do the offer adult reading classes?

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2016, 09:10:17 PM »

Intrigued, go on?
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #18 on: November 30, 2016, 04:36:59 PM »
Saving the Earth? Over my dead body.
An astounding amount of "green" organisations and political parties are actual threats to sustainability. Perhaps unsurprisingly, GroenLinks is a great example.

As I say, I know next to nothing about Dutch Politics, all I know of GL is that they're in the same Political group in the European Parliament as my party, the Green Party of England and Wales. As Jura said, what's wrong with GL?

Offline Dionysios

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Re: 2017 Dutch general election
« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2016, 06:50:38 PM »
There is a shift to the right across the world now, in reaction to institutions such as the EU rather than in support, the German Afd wants the dissolution of the Euro-zone because of its historical support of immigration and liberal reforms such as gay marriage, there is much wrong with the EU, but a “Trojan Horse for fascism” it isn’t.

These days, the more prominent fascist sort of european politicians talk anti-EU rhetoric, but the EU has been around long enough to see things change.