This debate is easy to resolve.  A camera, suitably set up in a frame to maintain horizontal line of sight, is sent up in a weather balloon.  If the earth is an oblate spheroid then the horizon will appear lower in the frame.  If the horizon maintains the same position in the camera (as I have no doubt that it will, because it does when I fly), then the world in unambiguously flat.

I look forward to the troll responses about why we can't do this simple experiment.

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Offline Tau

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Why is this in S&AS? It belongs in FEG or FED.

Anyway, I assume you're about to post a link to one of the countless videos in which this exact thing happens. Trust me, we've had this discussion before. I tried to search the old site for a thread about this very subject so we wouldn't have to rehash it, but I accidentally crashed the forum in the attempt. Oops.    Side note: god that website is terrible. I had forgotten how bad it really was.

The response generally involves distortion from the camera lens (if you look carefully in most of those videos, you'll see times when the horizon actually looks concave. Unless you believe in Flexible Earth Theory, that pretty clearly discounts them as evidence), lack of actual curvature (a circle of light is exactly what you'd expect to see on a flat Earth, and many videos fail to demonstrate curvature on the axes requires to prove RET), and the occasional Electromagnetic Acceleration theorist.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

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Offline Tau

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Wait. Did you make this thread twice? You could have just asked a mod to move it.

Also, there's no need to start making George Scott Fallacies. If we're trolls, and we aren't, why are you even here?
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

Read the FAQ: http://wiki.tfes.org/index.php?title=FAQ

Ghost of V



If the horizon maintains the same position in the camera (as I have no doubt that it will, because it does when I fly), then the world in unambiguously flat..

Do you have any evidence that suggests you've ever flown a plane or launched a weather balloon?

Usual avoidance strategy... what about comments on the idea?

Ghost of V

Usual avoidance strategy... what about comments on the idea?

Coming from the person who just avoided my question...

quite obviously proving or otherwise that I am a trainee pilot is TOTALLY irrelevant to the proposed experiment.  The correctness of the experiment is the subject of the post.

And you are using obfuscation, as predicted in the original post and a red herring.

I have seen the infamous video of the guy going up in a balloon capsule for the big parachute jump.  There are a couple of frames taken as he is getting out of the door where the horizon shows clearly that the earth is flat.  All the other pics have a ludicrous fish eye distortion.

A normal camera protected from the cold with a suitable gyroscope mechanism is all that is required.  Photos taken from a level position will show that the horizon does not alter from its position in the central area of the photograph if the earth is flat.  If the earth is shaped as we are told it is, then the horizon will drop lower in the frame as the balloon gains altitude.

Lens distortion is simply NOT relevant.

This is the simplest experiment to do.  Lets work out a way to get it done...

Rama Set

I am not sure why the horizon would remain low on a RE.  It sounds like you are assuming the distance to the horizon is the same, no matter the elevation even though it can be shown mathematically that the horizon would get further away as elevation increases. 

I may have misunderstood what you are saying, please let me know if I have.

Rama Set

I am not sure why the horizon would remain low on a RE.  It sounds like you are assuming the distance to the horizon is the same, no matter the elevation even though it can be shown mathematically that the horizon would get further away as elevation increases. 

I may have misunderstood what you are saying, please let me know if I have.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: An Easy Horizon Experiment to Prove the World is Flat or Oblate Spheroid
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2014, 09:03:57 PM »
I am not sure why the horizon would remain low on a RE.  It sounds like you are assuming the distance to the horizon is the same, no matter the elevation even though it can be shown mathematically that the horizon would get further away as elevation increases. 

I may have misunderstood what you are saying, please let me know if I have.
Reference to article for the "dip" on RE: http://mintaka.sdsu.edu/GF/explain/atmos_refr/dip.html,
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.


Re: An Easy Horizon Experiment to Prove the World is Flat or Oblate Spheroid
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2014, 09:51:24 PM »
                                     Declination
Altitude (ft)   Altitude (m)   degrees
          5                    1.5           0.040
    1600                487.6           0.709
  10000             3048.0           1.772
100000           30480.0           5.605

This is the declination from horizontal expected from a weather balloon at various heights, IF THE EARTH is an oblate spheroid.  At 100,000' atmospheric refraction effects will be negligible.

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Offline juner

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Re: An Easy Horizon Experiment to Prove the World is Flat or Oblate Spheroid
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2014, 10:09:15 PM »
Why is this in S&AS? It belongs in FEG or FED.

Agreed. Merged with the duplicate and left in FEG.

Re: An Easy Horizon Experiment to Prove the World is Flat or Oblate Spheroid
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2014, 01:51:45 AM »
Gulliver,  thank you for finding that "dip of the horizon" calculator.  I haven't seen that before. 

Offline Gulliver

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Re: An Easy Horizon Experiment to Prove the World is Flat or Oblate Spheroid
« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2014, 02:31:36 AM »
Gulliver,  thank you for finding that "dip of the horizon" calculator.  I haven't seen that before.
You're welcome. Given that any person with the calculator, a sextant, and a tall building on a bay can experimentally determine that the Earth is not flat, it's often ignored here in the forums.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

Re: An Easy Horizon Experiment to Prove the World is Flat or Oblate Spheroid
« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2014, 03:37:58 AM »
tell me more Gulliver.  I live on Port Phillip Bay in Melbourne Australia... I have only observed the same result as the Bedford canal... What have you observed?

Re: An Easy Horizon Experiment to Prove the World is Flat or Oblate Spheroid
« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2014, 03:48:53 AM »
and for a tall building on the bay, refraction would complicate any sextant reading to the point of doubt.  In my view, only a rigorously performed weather balloon experiment would settle this.  No mining survey takes account of earth curvature, nor any civil projects such as the Delaware, Paijanne or Dahuofang aqueducts.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: An Easy Horizon Experiment to Prove the World is Flat or Oblate Spheroid
« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2014, 06:08:07 AM »
and for a tall building on the bay, refraction would complicate any sextant reading to the point of doubt.  In my view, only a rigorously performed weather balloon experiment would settle this.  No mining survey takes account of earth curvature, nor any civil projects such as the Delaware, Paijanne or Dahuofang aqueducts.
You're asking questions that demonstrate to me your critical thinking. I suspect you have some real talent.

There's a lot to say for fully answer the "tall building" experiment. You really need to combine a second type of observation, disappearing hulls first of ship going to sea, or maybe the sunset time by floor if the building has windows looking westward to the horizon over the bay. (Otherwise, FEers invoke special pleading about the "magic" nature of sunlight's limited travel distance through an atmosphere ("atmolayer").

Regarding refraction, I agree that it makes for variances in the experimental results--but just in a numerical sense. Refraction favors longer distances, and longer distances favors RET. So refraction limits your experiment's repeatability , but not that the predicted difference between the two theories exists.

Next, and I love this question: can we quickly dismiss FET with a personal experiment with a helium balloon and a camera? Yes, and in deed, it's easy and inexpensive. First, the standard middle-school-level experiment that you'll see on youtube regularly shows a curvature. RET predicts this curvature. FET tries to hold on with some special pleading: That's just the curvature of the Sun's illumination on the Earth's surface. Tom Bishop even once argues that you could squint your eyes to make out distance countries in some examples. So, you'd need to add another constraint to break the special pleading. (Of course, the Sun illumination is not a circular except on the first days of summer and winter. On the equinoxes it's a straight line.)

Launch the balloon an hour before sunrise or after sunset. The launchpad will be in darkness. The balloon will rise into the sunlight and be able to see the terminus. The terminus will be curved. RET predicts that. FET can't handle it. Example:

So for about $1000 any FEer can prove FET false without any concern about the Conspiracy's interference. Or they could just vet the video I linked as an example and give up now.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

Rama Set

Re: An Easy Horizon Experiment to Prove the World is Flat or Oblate Spheroid
« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2014, 01:33:26 PM »
and for a tall building on the bay, refraction would complicate any sextant reading to the point of doubt.  In my view, only a rigorously performed weather balloon experiment would settle this.  No mining survey takes account of earth curvature, nor any civil projects such as the Delaware, Paijanne or Dahuofang aqueducts.

There are government geodetic surveys.  Here is a link to the Canadian webpage about it:

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/earth-sciences/geomatics/geodetic-reference-systems/10781