*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 1347
    • View Profile
Infinite universe.

Lol, you really like your unproven assumptions huh? Hey, when it's proven the universe is actually infinite, you might have a point. Until then you are using one unproven assumption to support another. I really hope you are able to see why that's logically untenable. But dogmatic belief can be quite strong.

Quote
http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2016/07/31/Pentagon-s-Sloppy-Bookkeeping-Means-65-Trillion-Can-t-Pass-Audit

6.5 trillion dollarydoos, count em.
Aside from my obvious and longheld distrust of the US government, I think there is a strong case to be made that some of this goes into unacknowledged special access projects.

Not necessarily "UFO's" but tech we don't get to see.

Wow and wild conspiracy theories too! I'm sorry but surely you see that when you have to strain this much to prove a point you're probably wrong.

The pentagon "losing" 6.5 trillion dollars isn't a "conspiracy". It's a fact.

Where that 6.5 trillion dollarydoos went is open to specualtion.

Right so "open to specualtion [sic]" equals "must be aliens". LOL, no wild leaps of imagination there.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

Offline birddy

  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
i think we cannot just, at least causally, say extraterritorial life and phenomenon is invalid and ignore it.
to me, extraterritorial phenomenon seemscontradict or cannot mutually inclusive with FE theory.

*

Offline howardtheduck

  • *
  • Posts: 7
  • Flat Earth Truther; don't believe the lies.
    • View Profile

[/quote]

Right so "open to specualtion [sic]" equals "must be aliens". LOL, no wild leaps of imagination there.
[/quote]

If we were all as close minded as Roundy, then we'd all believe the earth is round.
"The eye only sees what the mind is able to comprehend" Henri Bergson

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 2569
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
I'm sorry, it's actually brutal honesty in the face of an almost cultlike opposition. What do large numbers of habitable planets mean when we have no idea the probability of life in the first place?
Seeing how scientists have found life flourishing in inhospitable places like hydrothermal vents, hot springs, salt lakes, etc., I think that it's a pretty safe bet that life will exist pretty much anywhere in the universe that conditions allow.  Whether or not that life leads to intelligent, space faring life is a different matter.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 1347
    • View Profile
I'm sorry, it's actually brutal honesty in the face of an almost cultlike opposition. What do large numbers of habitable planets mean when we have no idea the probability of life in the first place?
Seeing how scientists have found life flourishing in inhospitable places like hydrothermal vents, hot springs, salt lakes, etc., I think that it's a pretty safe bet that life will exist pretty much anywhere in the universe that conditions allow.

Markjo, according to scientists life only began on this planet once, hence the notion that all life on Earth can be traced to a single ancestor. We are talking about the odds that life will form in the first place, not that it will then be able to flourish in inhospitable places, and your comment does nothing to address that issue. If you have an actual response to the points I make be my guest and post them. Otherwise don't expect another response.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

*

Offline Jura-Glenlivet

  • *
  • Posts: 1026
  • Life is meaningless & everything dies.
    • View Profile
Not true!
Might have been the case last time you looked at a science book/paper, but science moves on inexorably, keep up!

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg23130870-200-life-evolves-so-easily-that-it-started-not-once-but-many-times/

What scientists do say is the life we see around us now comes from one point source (the last universal common ancestor, LUCA), the DNA in all living things being related. Even this is not as straight forward as it seems as certain cell structures including mitochondria, chloroplasts, even the nucleus of eukaryote cells are the result of endosymbiosis, where cells of one type co-opt bacteria/archaea/viruses in a mutually beneficial way.

However, far from being a difficult miracle, scientists (Thomas Carell, Michael Yarus etc), taking a methodical approach have found that the basics of replication (RNA, coenzymes) can be reproduced not only in the lab but in a variety of conditions (frozen, dry & in solution) using naturally (to the times) occurring chemicals (hydrogen cyanide, ammonia, formic acid), add clay which carries a natural electrical charge that pulls in the RNA to form long chains and off you go.
These studies show the possibility that these building blocks would appear repeatedly in a wide variety of situations, that we have only one of these start-ups left as the source means, not that the others never happened but that once the more complex LUCA got its break, it out competed, ate/absorbed the others probably in an extinction event of huge proportions.

Now this is all speculation as it happened billions of years ago, but the ease of spontaneous reproductions of the basics of life, in all manner of niches does show that simple life should be ubiquitous, whether that leads to intelligence is another matter.

Personally, I think it probably sometimes does, but the jump to galaxy spanning civilisations is huge, the distances alone make the mind spasm. But we only have to look at ourselves to see the main problem, the amount of times civilisation has risen and died before we got to where we are now. The Mayans, the Anasazi, Easter island etc. as Jared Diamond outlined in his excellent book “collapse” environmental change and decisions of mind numbing stupidity, such as, chopping down the last trees on Easter island to transport the huge stone heads that must have seemed so important at the time, our current crop of climate change deniers should read that book.
 
Our short termism and unwillingness to learn from the past, coupled with an (up to now) largely benign universe has let us reach the edge of two things. The possibility of spreading out into the solar system and total collapse. The latter is what I think happens to those that reach this stage.

Evolution provides a set of behaviours to go with intelligence, that include aggression, to conquer predators and others like us, over-use of materials to out compete and the ability to credit our success to our own brilliance and extrapolate from that that this will continue forever. These traits, like evolution itself are likely to be universal, it is likely that the peaceful, wise races that Captain Kirk and others like him meet in fantasy land were chopped to bloody pieces before they got a look in, but even if they weren’t, we have been incredibly lucky.

 Our sun doesn’t bathe us in deadly burst of radiation like many would, we are away from any concentrations of late stage red giants that explode into supernovas scouring us from existence, we haven’t been whacked by any large rocks lately.

I think life largely hangs on in the face of its own failings, succumbing to either that or the capriciousness of an uncaring universe, that rock is coming, enjoy!   
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 02:37:29 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 1347
    • View Profile
When a laboratory creates life I will be convinced that we have enough of an understanding of its genesis to at least estimate how likely life is to form. Until then it is merely speculative.

That's interesting though about life having started up multiple times on Earth though. Worth looking into. If it's something they have actual concrete evidence for it certainly changes the conversation.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 1347
    • View Profile
Just looking at the title and first paragraph of the article there are already too many "may haves" and "could have beens" for me to be too confident that there's any actual proof therein but I will certainly read the full article when I have time.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

*

Offline Jura-Glenlivet

  • *
  • Posts: 1026
  • Life is meaningless & everything dies.
    • View Profile
Why thank you your majesty, I eagerly await your response.

Talking of actual proof, weren’t you the one that made up coroilons just out of no-where
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5149.msg100030#msg100030
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 2569
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
I'm sorry, it's actually brutal honesty in the face of an almost cultlike opposition. What do large numbers of habitable planets mean when we have no idea the probability of life in the first place?
Seeing how scientists have found life flourishing in inhospitable places like hydrothermal vents, hot springs, salt lakes, etc., I think that it's a pretty safe bet that life will exist pretty much anywhere in the universe that conditions allow.

Markjo, according to scientists life only began on this planet once, hence the notion that all life on Earth can be traced to a single ancestor.
Are you sure about that?  There seems to be some debate on that issue.
Panspermia is a Greek word that translates literally as "seeds everywhere". The panspermia hypothesis states that the "seeds" of life exist all over the Universe and can be propagated through space from one location to another. Some believe that life on Earth may have originated through these "seeds".

The fact that complex organic molecules have been found in interstellar space suggests that they may very well be onto something.
Scientists have found the beginnings of life-bearing chemistry at the centre of the galaxy.

Iso-propyl cyanide has been detected in a star-forming cloud 27,000 light-years from Earth.

Its branched carbon structure is closer to the complex organic molecules of life than any previous finding from interstellar space.
That is of course assuming that you accept radio astronomy as valid.

We are talking about the odds that life will form in the first place, not that it will then be able to flourish in inhospitable places, and your comment does nothing to address that issue.
The fact that life formed on earth means that the odds of life forming anywhere in the universe are greater than zero.

If you have an actual response to the points I make be my guest and post them. Otherwise don't expect another response.
Perhaps you need to make better points.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 07:25:17 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 1347
    • View Profile
Markjo, I'm not sure if you realize... I am not discounting the possibility that extraterrestrial life exists. I am pointing out that at present we have no proof that extraterrestrial life exists and that's something entirely different. So when you say "you sure about that?", well, the answer is obviously no. And neither are you, and that's my point. The article you link is intriguing but it's far from enough to state that extraterrestrial life exists with certainty, as it is still not life it is talking about.

If we're being fair it's not what Jura was talking about either. When scientists figure out how the rudiments of life became life,  maybe they will be able to (at least start to) answer the questions of how likely life is in the universe. Until then, or until we find life somewhere other than Earth, it's all guesswork and wishful thinking.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 02:01:11 AM by Roundy »
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 1347
    • View Profile
Well I'm sorry Jura, but I'm not subscribing to New Scientist just to read one article. It's a shame too because it really did seem interesting (if intensely speculative).

Tell me, what evidence is there to point to that life began more than once? Simply acknowledging that life doesn't begin with magic (duh) doesn't really do the trick for me.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

*

Offline Trav

  • *
  • Posts: 1
  • I'm just a Travis
    • View Profile
The existence of God does not neccesarily contradict the existence of life on other planets,

Depends what god you are talking about, If you are refering to the God of the Bible, then the heavens and earth are going to be remade so any life God may have created besides us will be destroyed anyway. (2 Peter 3:10)



Does that include all of space too? Maybe we're just one among many planets created, if that's the case then what applies to us may not apply elsewhere...
"Call me what you like as long as it isn't Patty..." -Patty

"If someone says they know for certain, they're selling something certainly..." -Conor Oberst

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 2569
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Markjo, I'm not sure if you realize... I am not discounting the possibility that extraterrestrial life exists. I am pointing out that at present we have no proof that extraterrestrial life exists and that's something entirely different. So when you say "you sure about that?", well, the answer is obviously no. And neither are you, and that's my point. The article you link is intriguing but it's far from enough to state that extraterrestrial life exists with certainty, as it is still not life it is talking about.
I thought that we were discussing the odds of extra-terrestrial life?  I'd say that considering what science knows about the robustness of life just on our own planet and what with we're learning about exoplanets and interstellar organic chemistry, I'd say that the odds of life existing elsewhere in the universe are quite favorable, if not an absolute certainty.  The fact that we haven't found any of it yet only goes to show how little of the universe has actually been properly explored.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 1347
    • View Profile
Markjo, I'm not sure if you realize... I am not discounting the possibility that extraterrestrial life exists. I am pointing out that at present we have no proof that extraterrestrial life exists and that's something entirely different. So when you say "you sure about that?", well, the answer is obviously no. And neither are you, and that's my point. The article you link is intriguing but it's far from enough to state that extraterrestrial life exists with certainty, as it is still not life it is talking about.
I thought that we were discussing the odds of extra-terrestrial life?  I'd say that considering what science knows about the robustness of life just on our own planet and what with we're learning about exoplanets and interstellar organic chemistry, I'd say that the odds of life existing elsewhere in the universe are quite favorable, if not an absolute certainty.

I was actually saying that we can't possibly know the odds, because there's a variable for which we have no value. And again you've really posted nothing that challenges that point, because like the rest of the world, you don't have a real answer. I will agree with you that our existence proves it's something greater than 0, but most people would consider that pretty much understood, to the extent that pointing it out is something of a non sequitur (you know, a"Markjo special"). It's how much greater than 0 that matters and not surprisingly you keep ignoring that in favor of stating what you believe to be the case, much like a deist trying to demonstrate the existence of God but unable to show anything approaching scientific proof. The parallels between religious belief and belief in aliens is so strong it's kind of hilariously ironic that you (iirc?) and Jura are so strongly against the one while having so much blind faith in the other. I don't want to use the word "hypocritical", it just seems to fit so well (at least for Jura, again I think I remember you being an atheist but I'm not sure).
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

*

Offline markjo

  • *
  • Posts: 2569
  • Zetetic Council runner-up
    • View Profile
Markjo, I'm not sure if you realize... I am not discounting the possibility that extraterrestrial life exists. I am pointing out that at present we have no proof that extraterrestrial life exists and that's something entirely different. So when you say "you sure about that?", well, the answer is obviously no. And neither are you, and that's my point. The article you link is intriguing but it's far from enough to state that extraterrestrial life exists with certainty, as it is still not life it is talking about.
I thought that we were discussing the odds of extra-terrestrial life?  I'd say that considering what science knows about the robustness of life just on our own planet and what with we're learning about exoplanets and interstellar organic chemistry, I'd say that the odds of life existing elsewhere in the universe are quite favorable, if not an absolute certainty.

I was actually saying that we can't possibly know the odds, because there's a variable for which we have no value.
And I'm saying that the universe is so large and so old that as long as the odds are greater than zero, then it doesn't really matter what the odds are.  It's like playing the lottery: the odds of you winning this drawing are virtually zero, but the odds that people will win every now and then are a virtual certainty.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 03:09:51 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Long-time UFO believer, new to the Flat Earth theory; but intrigued.

 Are these two theories diometrically opposed? The existence of God does not neccesarily contradict the existence of life on other planets, but the certain parts of the Flat Earth model have me conflicted. After many night's consideration I have come up with the following questions;

1. How would vessels from outer space enter the earth's atmosphere through the firmament?

2. If there are other planets apart from Earth that are round, what would lifeforms look like from a round planet? (e.g animals from the deep ocean form differently due to the pressure from the water. Would creatures on ball planets form differently?)

3. Is it possible that another planet like Earth (flat) exists somewhere out there?


Any opinions appreciated,

Howard
I do not believe the "space ships" are "space ships."

I believe they are inter-dimensional devices.

I do not believe "space aliens," are "space aliens."

I believe they are inter-dimensional beings.

My thoughts exactly. In my opinion, an advanced form of life wouldn't be using a physical vessel, to fly from a planet somewhere to Earth from millions of light years away. That would require a tremendous and absurd amount of energy. I am more apt to believe in "inner space" than I am "outer space." We do know that we exist, and we do know that there is still a lot we don't know about the how or why. Looking into the clouds and longing for existence in the unknown doesn't make sense to me.

*

Offline Jura-Glenlivet

  • *
  • Posts: 1026
  • Life is meaningless & everything dies.
    • View Profile
I don't want to use the word "hypocritical", it just seems to fit so well (at least for Jura, again I think I remember you being an atheist but I'm not sure).

Yep you remember right, but you are confused.

I don't believe in aliens, I believe in there is a good chance that there is life else where in this universe, there's a difference.

If you want/need odds, can't help you , we have too small a sample for that, but scientifically we can point to what we know. We know that here the building blocks for life are easily made, we know that they can replicate under a wide range of conditions, we know (as Marko points out) “with what we're learning about exoplanets and interstellar organic chemistry “ that those conditions exist elsewhere, we know that the universe is both old and fucking huge. Now if you don't believe that  these things are so, then there is no point to us continuing with this, if you concede the possibility then I'll continue.

I don't have the narcissistic view that religion or some of the FE community seem to have, that we are anything special in the universe, there are billions of other stars like ours, far enough out from the core of our galaxy or away from unstable stars not to be bathed in life killing radiation. With this frame of reference, the points above and the conviction that we don't know under what other conditions life can form, it isn't “blind faith” that leads me to the conclusion that there very well maybe life out there.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2017, 08:41:47 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

*

Offline Dither

  • *
  • Posts: 149
    • View Profile
Does that include all of space too? Maybe we're just one among many planets created, if that's the case then what applies to us may not apply elsewhere...

The Bible does not describe the stars as suns in other universes, what we have now is a worship of science fiction.
I believe the stars are lights "in the firmament" they differ from the two great lights, which are the sun and moon.

So Space, Billions of light years, Billions of earth years, Big Bang, Evolution, is all the invention of man. Deut 4:19

 
A lie will make it around the world before the truth has time to put on it’s shoes.