Offline Flatout

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Planetary Ecliptic
« on: April 21, 2017, 04:23:22 AM »
So, my 10 year old and I have be watching Jupiter for several months.  On the weekends  we have getting up in the middle of the night to check it out. We live at 44° north latitude. We have noticed:
1) The solar ecliptic has been getting higher in the sky over the last few months.
2) The planetary ecliptic has been getting lower for the last few months.

This makes sense with heliocentric model with the axis of the earth tilted at 23.5°.  The northern hemisphere is tipped towards the sun during the day causing the ecliptic if the sun to rise.  At night it's tipped away form the planetary ecliptic​ causing the planetary ecliptic to be closer to the southern horizon.

What is the flat earth explanation for this observation?  According to the wiki the planets orbit the sun. If the sun is revolving around a more northern latitude approaching summer then why don't the planets also appearing to be higher in the sky.  Instead the opposite is observed.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 04:32:41 AM by Flatout »

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Offline junker

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2017, 04:32:40 AM »
Hi there. While this is certainly an interesting, unsubstantiated anecdote, it really isn't a question about FET. Rather, it's a question from one person based on a specific, alleged observation. This forum is mostly reserved for those interested in asking questions about FET, not trying to debate a scenario that may or may not exist. I'm going to move to FE General for now.
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Offline Flatout

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2017, 04:35:53 AM »
Junker, you are kidding right?  You haven't noticed this yourself?  You're insinuating that I'm the only person to ever observe this?

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Offline junker

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2017, 04:39:48 AM »
Junker, you are kidding right? 
No.

Quote
You haven't noticed this yourself? 
No.

Quote
You're insinuating that I'm the only person to ever observe this?
No.
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Offline Flatout

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #4 on: April 21, 2017, 04:46:28 AM »
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?

Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #5 on: April 21, 2017, 07:39:17 PM »
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?
If it's not on YouTube they probably don't see it. I have been watching jupiter as well, and you are correct. So that makes at least two of us. I'm sure there's more. Jupiter isn't exactly hard to identify, look east after sunset. The brightest object in the sky.

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Offline junker

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2017, 07:55:14 PM »
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?
You sure can, although you would have to talk about it with those who put together the wiki. Observation is key, I agree.


If it's not on YouTube they probably don't see it.
What on earth are you going on about? You obviously know absolutely nothing of the community here. Ignorance seems to be the favorite utility of this newer batch of RE noobs.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2017, 12:19:53 AM »
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?

Empiricism. The retrograde tells us that it is revolving around the sun. If the planets were revolving around the northern hub they would not retrograde.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2017, 12:31:23 AM »
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?

Empiricism. The retrograde tells us that it is revolving around the sun. If the planets were revolving around the northern hub they would not retrograde.
Gotcha.  Why does the planets ecliptic decline in elevation while the solar ecliptic increase in elevation?  When the solar ecliptic decrease in elevation after the summer solstice the planetary ecliptic at night starts to  increase in elevation.  Why? 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2017, 02:12:47 AM »
Junker, can I asked how the hypothesis in the wiki were developed?  I thought that zeteticism evolved from observation.  How was the statement that the planets revolve around the sun developed?

Empiricism. The retrograde tells us that it is revolving around the sun. If the planets were revolving around the northern hub they would not retrograde.
Gotcha.  Why does the planets ecliptic decline in elevation while the solar ecliptic increase in elevation?  When the solar ecliptic decrease in elevation after the summer solstice the planetary ecliptic at night starts to  increase in elevation.  Why?

The planets are only seen at night when they are on the opposite side of the earth from the sun. If the solar plane system is gradually tilting higher, with the sun constantly affixed fixed to its highest point, it follows that whatever is on the opposite side of that sun will be seen to be lower than what was recently seen. And vice-versa, when the solar plane system is tilting lower, with the sun constantly affixed to its lowest point, whatever is rotating in that system on the opposite side of the sun would be seen to be higher than what was recently seen.

Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2017, 02:32:10 AM »
Venus can sometimes be seen in the daytime: http://www.space.com/24667-rare-venus-daytime-sky-views.html

Also Jupiter and maybe Mars: http://earthsky.org/space/10-surprising-things-to-see-in-the-daytime-sky

This site has a video with observations of Mercury, Mars and even Saturn in the daytime: http://sky.velp.info/daystars.php
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 02:37:07 AM by Nirmala »

Offline Flatout

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2017, 03:02:58 AM »
Tom, I'm trying to understand what you are saying. Are you saying the orbital plane of the planets is tilted at an angle compared to the plane of the earth?
« Last Edit: April 22, 2017, 03:07:24 PM by Flatout »

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2017, 04:28:47 AM »
The planets are only seen at night when they are on the opposite side of the earth from the sun. If the solar plane system is gradually tilting higher, with the sun constantly affixed fixed to its highest point, it follows that whatever is on the opposite side of that sun will be seen to be lower than what was recently seen. And vice-versa, when the solar plane system is tilting lower, with the sun constantly affixed to its lowest point, whatever is rotating in that system on the opposite side of the sun would be seen to be higher than what was recently seen.

Tom, I'm trying to understand what you are saying. Are you saying the orbital plane of the planets is tilted at an angle compared to the plane of the earth?

Me too.  Tom, can you post a drawing of what you have in mind here?  A simplified system including only the Earth, Sun, and Jupiter would suffice to illustrate the premise, I think.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2017, 10:19:00 PM »
Venus can sometimes be seen in the daytime: http://www.space.com/24667-rare-venus-daytime-sky-views.html

Also Jupiter and maybe Mars: http://earthsky.org/space/10-surprising-things-to-see-in-the-daytime-sky

This site has a video with observations of Mercury, Mars and even Saturn in the daytime: http://sky.velp.info/daystars.php

Those observations are in twilight, and even so, a twilight observation would have a slightly higher (or lower) ecliptic than a midnight observation. The solar plane of the sun and planets is tilted. It is tilted in RET as well, except that it is claimed that the cause is the earth being tilted.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2017, 11:36:37 PM »
By what angle is the planetary plane tilted in the flat earth understanding?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2017, 12:17:24 AM »
By what angle is the planetary plane tilted in the flat earth understanding?

The angle changes throughout the year. The Sun moving along the ecliptic:

« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 04:59:02 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Flatout

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2017, 02:23:09 AM »
Tom, I fully understand the change in the solar ecliptic throughout the year.  I'm looking for an explanation of why then planetary ecliptic declines while the solar ecliptic inclines.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2017, 02:34:24 AM »
Tom, I fully understand the change in the solar ecliptic throughout the year.  I'm looking for an explanation of why then planetary ecliptic declines while the solar ecliptic inclines.

If one side of a dish is tilted downwards, the other side of the dish will be tilted upwards. If the sun is low, the planets seen at night will be high.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 02:36:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Flatout

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2017, 02:35:47 AM »
Tom, I fully understand the change in the solar ecliptic throughout the year.  I'm looking for an explanation of why then planetary ecliptic declines while the solar ecliptic inclines.

If one side of a dish is tilted downwards, the other side of the dish will be tilted upwards.
By what degree?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Planetary Ecliptic
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2017, 02:36:55 AM »
Tom, I fully understand the change in the solar ecliptic throughout the year.  I'm looking for an explanation of why then planetary ecliptic declines while the solar ecliptic inclines.

If one side of a dish is tilted downwards, the other side of the dish will be tilted upwards.
By what degree?

The degree varies throughout the year. See the image I posted above. The degrees are listed in the left margin.