Flat earth map is wrong
« on: April 08, 2017, 03:08:44 AM »
 Please explain how it shows on the flat earth maps why it is a longer distance from Australia to south America than it is from uae  to Australia? Also when I flew from Doha to Melbourne I flew over Indian ocean but you can't go that route on the flat earth map, the flat earth has you over India . also if you circumnavigate earth if it is a globe then it can travel in a straight path round and on flat earth you go in a circle so you stop going straight and start adding time and distance.? If maps wrong then how can it be fixed without changing distance between the different points?

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Offline junker

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2017, 03:17:51 AM »
Also when I flew from Doha to Melbourne I flew over Indian ocean

How did you confirm that?


Quote
also if you circumnavigate earth if it is a globe then it can travel in a straight path round and on flat earth you go in a circle so you stop going straight and start adding time and distance.? If maps wrong then how can it be fixed without changing distance between the different points?

What? Circumnavigation works just fine in FET.
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Offline Novarus

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2017, 06:05:43 AM »


What? Circumnavigation works just fine in FET.

Sure, if you explain somehow that space is warped at the southern/outer latitudes so you can appear to be moving the same speed but travelling 4 times as far on that time.

A non stop flight from Los Angeles, USA to Seoul, South Korea takes roughly the same amount of time as a non stop flight from Sydney, Australia to Santiago de Chile. On a flat earth, the latter flight would take far longer, would it not? Unless the plane were travelling at supersonic speeds, the similarity of flight time is only possible on a sphere.
None of the map projections account for this and the best answer one can get out of a flat earth theorist is "we don't know" and even "we can't know" as if cartography is some arcane art beyond out comprehension.

So the argument is "we don't have any idea of how to represent our world view in any way that fits with the assertions we make but we know you're wrong."

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Offline junker

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2017, 11:25:05 AM »


What? Circumnavigation works just fine in FET.

Sure...

You should've stopped there. The rest of your wall of text is irrelevant. Did you actually read the thread?
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Offline SexWarrior

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2017, 06:56:42 PM »
why it is a longer distance from Australia to south America than it is from uae  to Australia?
Sorry, you've lost me. How did you establish this?
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Offline Novarus

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #5 on: April 10, 2017, 06:23:35 PM »


What? Circumnavigation works just fine in FET.

Sure...

You should've stopped there. The rest of your wall of text is irrelevant. Did you actually read the thread?

I did - the flat earth map projection, no matter which one you choose, doesn't account for the similarity in flight times without using excuses like "non-euclidian space"

Take any flight in the northern hemisphere - find a flight in the southern hemisphere with similar flight time. Put them on a flat earth map and compare the distances.

If any map projection is going to accurately represent how the world actually looks, it need to somehow explain the flight times of similar routes that thousands of people take every day. Any one of them can tell you how long it took and any pilot can tell you where they flew and how they got there.

Where is your alternative? Do you have a map that explains this?

Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #6 on: April 10, 2017, 06:32:20 PM »
The map is a projection. The distances are meant to be accurate along longitude. There is no flat earth map because there are no flat earth cartographers.

Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #7 on: April 13, 2017, 02:20:59 AM »
The map is a projection. The distances are meant to be accurate along longitude. There is no flat earth map because there are no flat earth cartographers.

There is no need for a cartographer. It would be sufficient for the purposes of these discussions if someone merely sketched out a rough drawing that showed how it is possible to show the size, shape and distances between the continents and major airports in a fashion that accounts for the actual recorded data from tens of thousands of flights as accumulated here: http://flightaware.com/ including all nonstop flights in the southern hemisphere.

In order to make it even easier, you could cut out the continents from an exiting map that is known for showing them in the correct relative size and shape such as the authragraphic projection: https://www.wired.com/2016/11/weird-globe-folding-map-isnt-perfect-close/ (Interesting to note that this flat map can be folded into a rough sphere and then even the distances between continents are correct)

So once you have the correct shapes and sizes, the distances between any two points on the same continent would all be roughly correct. Then all you have to do is arrange them on a flat surface of whatever shape would accommodate the idea of a flat earth (who says it has to be a perfectly round disc?), as long as all distances between major airports on different continents was also close to being correct. (Note that this is where the flat (unfolded) version of the authragraph map falls short, not to mention that you would fly over the edge of the world (or at least off of the territory shown on the map) if you head west from Africa or Europe or east from the Americas.)

If the earth were truly flat, this would not be that much harder than a child putting together a jig saw puzzle. The simple fact that after all these years of people debating the shape of the earth, no one has ever managed this simple feat is quite revealing.

Meanwhile the distances and flight paths calculated on a great circle mapper based on the geometry of a sphere all work out to be the same distance and path that the airlines fly on nonstop flights (with a few exceptions based on geopolitics as airlines sometimes tend to avoid flying over war zones). See: http://www.gcmap.com/

So you have one model of a flat earth that no one can even represent on a map equivalent to a child's drawing that still roughly works to account for all distances that are well documented and flown thousands of times a year (there are over 3.5 million commercial airline flights each year, not including military and private flights).

And then you have another model of the earth (the globe and resulting calculators based on a sphere) that when referred to matches up with the extensive database of actual flights and the reports of individuals who fly those routes (see http://creation.com/a-direct-test-of-the-flat-earth-model-flight-times ).

I wonder what can be concluded from the relative success of these two models, one that has not ever been loosely mapped out even by those who fervently believe in it, and another one that can be used effectively and reliably to show the time it should and does take to fly between any two airports that have nonstop service? Any one want to venture a guess as to why there is such a huge discrepancy between the two models and their ability to be accurately represented?

This was also debated (if you can call it that as I am still waiting for anyone to offer a reasonable rebuttal to most of the points I made) on another thread starting with this post: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=5888.msg113568#msg113568
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 01:23:42 AM by Nirmala »

Offline Unsure101

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2017, 05:11:16 AM »
I believe that İntikam was creating a "true" flat earth map at one stage, did they ever finish it?

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2017, 06:22:56 AM »
Can you ever really be sure what intikam is saying?
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Offline thedude

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2017, 08:56:33 PM »
Please explain how it shows on the flat earth maps why it is a longer distance from Australia to south America than it is from uae  to Australia? Also when I flew from Doha to Melbourne I flew over Indian ocean but you can't go that route on the flat earth map, the flat earth has you over India . also if you circumnavigate earth if it is a globe then it can travel in a straight path round and on flat earth you go in a circle so you stop going straight and start adding time and distance.? If maps wrong then how can it be fixed without changing distance between the different points?

A Taiwanese woman gave birth 6 hours into a flight from Bali to LAX, which is 19 hour flight. They had to make an emergency landing in Anchorage Alaska, which is a 23 hour flight from Bali to Alaska. 6 hours into a flight from Bali to LAX and you go over 2,000 miles off course to get to Alaska? That emergency landing doesn't make sense on a globe. It does on a Flat Earth map, though. On a Flat Earth map, Anchorage is in the middle of Bali and LAX.

I don't know if that proves anything, but it sure is suspicious.

What the video below or just google "Taiwanese woman gives birth on plane" and see for yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR6fQ1zkBhA

Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2017, 09:20:37 PM »
Please explain how it shows on the flat earth maps why it is a longer distance from Australia to south America than it is from uae  to Australia? Also when I flew from Doha to Melbourne I flew over Indian ocean but you can't go that route on the flat earth map, the flat earth has you over India . also if you circumnavigate earth if it is a globe then it can travel in a straight path round and on flat earth you go in a circle so you stop going straight and start adding time and distance.? If maps wrong then how can it be fixed without changing distance between the different points?

A Taiwanese woman gave birth 6 hours into a flight from Bali to LAX, which is 19 hour flight. They had to make an emergency landing in Anchorage Alaska, which is a 23 hour flight from Bali to Alaska. 6 hours into a flight from Bali to LAX and you go over 2,000 miles off course to get to Alaska? That emergency landing doesn't make sense on a globe. It does on a Flat Earth map, though. On a Flat Earth map, Anchorage is in the middle of Bali and LAX.

I don't know if that proves anything, but it sure is suspicious.

What the video below or just google "Taiwanese woman gives birth on plane" and see for yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR6fQ1zkBhA

The flight was from Taipei, Taiwan to LA: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mom-gives-birth-19-hour-flight-from-taiwan_us_561ea2d2e4b050c6c4a3e94d

If you connect those two locations on a globe, you will quickly discover that like most flights, the shortest route is what is called a great circle route. On a flat map, that kind of route appears curved, but on a sphere or a globe, that curved path is the shortest route. Here is a website that allows you to calculate the shortest route on a spherical earth:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=tpe-lax

And guess what, the great circle route from Taipei (not Bali) to Los Angleles goes fairly close to Anchorage, Alaska. At the very least, halfway through that flight, Anchorage would have been the closest major airport as most of the flight is over the open ocean

See this page for a record of a recent China Airlines flight along with a map of the flight path: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CAL8/history/20170428/1550Z/RCTP/KLAX

This kind of flight path is not proof either way as it has a strong north/south component and is located in the northern hemisphere so it would appear to follow a similar path on the north pole azimuthal projection which the flat earthers use. The best way to see how different a flight path can be on a round earth versus a flat earth is to compare the path of a mostly east/west flight in the southern hemisphere such as the flights discussed here: https://www.metabunk.org/flat-earth-theory-debunked-by-short-flights-qf27-qf28-from-australia-to-south-america.t6483/

The second picture in that other thread shows very clearly how on a globe a "curved" path is actually a straight line when viewed from above.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2017, 11:01:58 PM »
Please explain how it shows on the flat earth maps why it is a longer distance from Australia to south America than it is from uae  to Australia? Also when I flew from Doha to Melbourne I flew over Indian ocean but you can't go that route on the flat earth map, the flat earth has you over India . also if you circumnavigate earth if it is a globe then it can travel in a straight path round and on flat earth you go in a circle so you stop going straight and start adding time and distance.? If maps wrong then how can it be fixed without changing distance between the different points?

A Taiwanese woman gave birth 6 hours into a flight from Bali to LAX, which is 19 hour flight. They had to make an emergency landing in Anchorage Alaska, which is a 23 hour flight from Bali to Alaska. 6 hours into a flight from Bali to LAX and you go over 2,000 miles off course to get to Alaska? That emergency landing doesn't make sense on a globe. It does on a Flat Earth map, though. On a Flat Earth map, Anchorage is in the middle of Bali and LAX.

I don't know if that proves anything, but it sure is suspicious.

What the video below or just google "Taiwanese woman gives birth on plane" and see for yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR6fQ1zkBhA
Since you like getting your education from YouTube here is one from a pilot explaining just why that would be.

Offline thedude

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2017, 11:39:42 AM »


The flight was from Taipei, Taiwan to LA: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mom-gives-birth-19-hour-flight-from-taiwan_us_561ea2d2e4b050c6c4a3e94d

If you connect those two locations on a globe, you will quickly discover that like most flights, the shortest route is what is called a great circle route. On a flat map, that kind of route appears curved, but on a sphere or a globe, that curved path is the shortest route. Here is a website that allows you to calculate the shortest route on a spherical earth:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=tpe-lax

And guess what, the great circle route from Taipei (not Bali) to Los Angleles goes fairly close to Anchorage, Alaska. At the very least, halfway through that flight, Anchorage would have been the closest major airport as most of the flight is over the open ocean

See this page for a record of a recent China Airlines flight along with a map of the flight path: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CAL8/history/20170428/1550Z/RCTP/KLAX

This kind of flight path is not proof either way as it has a strong north/south component and is located in the northern hemisphere so it would appear to follow a similar path on the north pole azimuthal projection which the flat earthers use. The best way to see how different a flight path can be on a round earth versus a flat earth is to compare the path of a mostly east/west flight in the southern hemisphere such as the flights discussed here: https://www.metabunk.org/flat-earth-theory-debunked-by-short-flights-qf27-qf28-from-australia-to-south-america.t6483/

The second picture in that other thread shows very clearly how on a globe a "curved" path is actually a straight line when viewed from above.

Nirmala,
I appreciate the response. I don't claim to know a lot about how this stuff works and I've been reading and watching videos that both attempt to prove and debunk a flat earth. I'm not an FE'er, but there are a lot of things that don't make sense, on either side, to me. I continually tell myself, regardless of flat earth or globe, I am learning things that I slept through in school. Thanks for taking the time to explain things without being condescending.

Offline thedude

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2017, 11:47:11 AM »

Since you like getting your education from YouTube here is one from a pilot explaining just why that would be.

Thanks for the video. I realize you're probably annoyed with Flat Earther's, so I'll overlook the condescending tone in your previous post, but I promise I am not coming in here with an agenda. I'm questioning things I've never questioned before, so I'm really just looking for answers.


Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2017, 02:11:25 PM »


The flight was from Taipei, Taiwan to LA: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mom-gives-birth-19-hour-flight-from-taiwan_us_561ea2d2e4b050c6c4a3e94d

If you connect those two locations on a globe, you will quickly discover that like most flights, the shortest route is what is called a great circle route. On a flat map, that kind of route appears curved, but on a sphere or a globe, that curved path is the shortest route. Here is a website that allows you to calculate the shortest route on a spherical earth:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=tpe-lax

And guess what, the great circle route from Taipei (not Bali) to Los Angleles goes fairly close to Anchorage, Alaska. At the very least, halfway through that flight, Anchorage would have been the closest major airport as most of the flight is over the open ocean

See this page for a record of a recent China Airlines flight along with a map of the flight path: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/CAL8/history/20170428/1550Z/RCTP/KLAX

This kind of flight path is not proof either way as it has a strong north/south component and is located in the northern hemisphere so it would appear to follow a similar path on the north pole azimuthal projection which the flat earthers use. The best way to see how different a flight path can be on a round earth versus a flat earth is to compare the path of a mostly east/west flight in the southern hemisphere such as the flights discussed here: https://www.metabunk.org/flat-earth-theory-debunked-by-short-flights-qf27-qf28-from-australia-to-south-america.t6483/

The second picture in that other thread shows very clearly how on a globe a "curved" path is actually a straight line when viewed from above.

Nirmala,
I appreciate the response. I don't claim to know a lot about how this stuff works and I've been reading and watching videos that both attempt to prove and debunk a flat earth. I'm not an FE'er, but there are a lot of things that don't make sense, on either side, to me. I continually tell myself, regardless of flat earth or globe, I am learning things that I slept through in school. Thanks for taking the time to explain things without being condescending.

Yes, I also came to the flat earth theory with a fairly open attitude, and I also found that I learned a lot about perspective, refraction, astronomy and other topics while exploring this theory. However, over time I personally found that there were a lot more aspects of the flat earth theory that do not stand up to close scrutiny or analysis, whereas I have yet to find a criticism of the round earth model that is truly impossible to account for. That has been my journey with all of this, and I wish you all the best as you explore it for yourself.

As with most online forums and discussions, it is pretty easy to slip into personal attacks. So you may want to put on some protective gear when you post on here  ;)

Offline thedude

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2017, 03:06:53 PM »
Yes, I also came to the flat earth theory with a fairly open attitude, and I also found that I learned a lot about perspective, refraction, astronomy and other topics while exploring this theory. However, over time I personally found that there were a lot more aspects of the flat earth theory that do not stand up to close scrutiny or analysis, whereas I have yet to find a criticism of the round earth model that is truly impossible to account for. That has been my journey with all of this, and I wish you all the best as you explore it for yourself.

As with most online forums and discussions, it is pretty easy to slip into personal attacks. So you may want to put on some protective gear when you post on here  ;)
Thanks! Yes, I'm starting to learn a lot through this process. I don't want to be guilty of cognitive dissonance, so I am truly open to the truth. I'm not starting from a point of bias where I'm trying to fit truth into my belief. Truth can stand to scrutiny. I've just blindly believed things without understanding, because that's what we were taught. I have hit a place in my life where that isn't good enough and I need to understand it better. I'm actually grateful for flat earth theory because it has made me question and challenge what I know. Truth always finds you, though, if you are honest about it.

I know that you can't take attacks online personally, but I always appreciate being treated respectfully.   ;D

Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2017, 10:53:12 PM »
Please explain how it shows on the flat earth maps why it is a longer distance from Australia to south America than it is from uae  to Australia? Also when I flew from Doha to Melbourne I flew over Indian ocean but you can't go that route on the flat earth map, the flat earth has you over India . also if you circumnavigate earth if it is a globe then it can travel in a straight path round and on flat earth you go in a circle so you stop going straight and start adding time and distance.? If maps wrong then how can it be fixed without changing distance between the different points?

Which flat earth map is the one to which you are referring ?
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

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Offline Flatout

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Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2017, 01:18:27 PM »
I think Flat earth map isn't wrong

Do you have one that can be used to calculated long range airplane flights?

Re: Flat earth map is wrong
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2017, 02:51:10 PM »
Please explain how it shows on the flat earth maps why it is a longer distance from Australia to south America than it is from uae  to Australia? Also when I flew from Doha to Melbourne I flew over Indian ocean but you can't go that route on the flat earth map, the flat earth has you over India . also if you circumnavigate earth if it is a globe then it can travel in a straight path round and on flat earth you go in a circle so you stop going straight and start adding time and distance.? If maps wrong then how can it be fixed without changing distance between the different points?


There is really no flat earth map. The only so-called flat earth map (the one with the "ice ring") is actually the Azimuthal Equidistant Projection (of the globe).  Like most projections, there is distortion in some areas.The AEP is distorted south of the equator.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 10:54:22 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !