#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2017, 04:12:56 PM »
I clarified that mapping a flat earth would be much easier because you are mapping a relatively two-dimensional object, like the floor plan of a building. As you say, maps have been around for hundreds of years. It would seem that someone would have gotten it right by now, if indeed they were mapping a two dimensional object.

As for navigation, for hundreds of years navigators have taken into account the distortions in their maps. This is from a Britannica.com article about navigation charts: "In 1599 the English mathematician Edward Wright supplied a rational explanation of Mercator’s projection and provided tables by which the distorted distances could be corrected."

I could not find a single database for the entire earth, but I found this site that will tell you driving distances on Australia, which I picked because it is so distorted on every flat earth map I have seen: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distanceresult.html?p1=240&p2=196
The results for driving from Sydney to Perth come out at 3934 km which follows roads and wisely avoids traversing water
I also found this calculator for calculating distances which is based on a round earth:
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/distance.html
It calculated and displayed a slightly curved path from Sydney to Perth that measures 3298 km which makes sense given no roads are involved.
Quantas has a Flight Aware tracking system for flight # 581 from Sydney to Perth showing a flight distance of 3281 km (2039 miles) with expected average flight speed of 409 mph:
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA581
You will see on that page that the last 14 flights all arrived within 5 hours of departure except one which was 5 hours and 2 minutes.

These are all calculations based on a round earth and they are incredibly accurate. I challenge you to show me a map based on a flat earth that comes even remotely close to these calculations. A globe does allow these calculations to work, but so do map projections based on a round earth that are biased to show the continents in their correct relative sizes such as the Dymaxion map by Buckminster Fuller or the Authagraph projection (note that the best way to do this is to cut the earth up into triangles which can be flattened out and then also can be folded back up to make a roughly spherical shaped globe).

The reason these calculations do not work based on a flat earth model is simple, the earth is not flat. That also explains why the flight path in the link above curves south over the water. A straight line on a two dimensional map does not take into account the curvature of the earth. I am pretty sure the airlines would not fly hundreds of miles out of their way just to support a conspiracy to keep us all in the dark about the shape of the earth.

And finally, thank you for taking the time this time to respond in slightly more depth to my points. I do appreciate it and have truly enjoyed exploring this flat earth theory as it has taught me much. However, I am done debating this for now, so this will be my last post. I wish you all the best.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 08:23:53 PM by Nirmala »

#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2017, 06:35:09 PM »
I said I was done, but I found two more relevant links. The first is a description of how great circle distances are calculated using the geometry of a sphere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great-circle_distance Note that these distance calculations only work on the surface of a sphere.

The second link is a website with a database of 1000 air routes using the great circle distances: http://www.greatcirclemapper.net/en/routes.html
Note that the site also allows you to calculate the great circle distance between any two airports using the spherical model of the earth.

The second website gave the calculation for Sydney to Perth as 3284 km which is what the earlier websites also predicted, and what Quantas flies every day. You can use the flight tracking system to check historical records of hundreds if not thousands of flight times and distances on Quantas. I did not search other airlines, but they may have similar databases. Correction: The flight tracker website showing the Quantas data has similar data for over 10,000 operators of aircraft, so you should be able to check any airline and any route on there and find a historical record of flight times and the calculated distance and expected speed. So you asked for a large database of historical records of distances traveled, and I have now provided you with one that probably has hundreds of thousands if not millions of historical records of actual flights flown by commercial aircraft of all types.

Maybe the reason there is no database for every two points on the earth is that there is no need for one when you can so easily calculate the data using a spherical model of the earth. Here is another calculator that allows you to calculate based on the latitude and longitude of any two points: http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/gccalc.shtml

What method or methods do you propose for calculating distances on a flat earth? If the earth is truly flat, these calculations should be fairly simple as they would all involve just two dimensions instead of three. No matter what the actual outline or shape is of the flat earth, you could simply lay a right angle grid over it and thereby calculate all of the distances from any two points within that grid using the simplest geometry of right triangles. Can you show me any such examples of a grid showing these kind of coordinates? Are there any calculators for a flat earth that even cover say one hemisphere? The spherical earth has such a system of coordinates known as latitude and longitude, but they are not aligned at right angles due to the spherical model....and yet they work in every test case. It should be easy to create such a grid on a flat earth and yet no one has done so. Why is that? Can you show me any examples where calculations from a grid on a map of the flat earth matched up with actual flight paths and times? If not, why not, when round earth calculators are so common and accurate?

You keep asking me for data, and I have offered some. I have not seen any data from you that supports a different arrangement of the continents or a different calculation or measurement of the distances between well known airports based on a flat earth. Can you give me just one example? And if you do offer such an example, does it contradict any other possible calculations, such as on the map I shared where some air routes are correct, but others are not? I have offered examples on both the unipolar and bipolar maps where the route distances  versus the flight times are incorrect. Can you show me one example where the distance calculated on a sphere using the calculators linked to above do not correspond to actual flight times? It seems I have offered a lot of data. Maybe it is your turn
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 08:26:55 PM by Nirmala »

#### Roundy

• Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
• 1381
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2017, 02:05:04 AM »
I thought you were finished here.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2017, 06:58:29 PM »
I thought you were finished here.

I couldn't help myself from coming back, and thanks for making me feel so welcome here

In general, I am moving on. However, if anyone does respond to this discussion, just send me a PM to alert me if you want me to consider your ideas. I would be very open to it if any flat earther could show me a world map that does work with the air travel data in the links I shared. But it seems pretty obvious that this would have already happened if the earth were truly flat. It is a bit mind boggling to think that in this day and age someone could suggest that no one is able to draw an accurate map of the surface of our planet, when it has been traversed so many millions of times. I found a source online that suggests that 102,465 commercial airline flights occur each and every day covering 49,871 regularly scheduled routes. In 2014 that worked out to 37.4 million flights, which does not even include private aircraft and military flights. How is it possible that all of those pilots seem to be arriving at their destinations according to the flight paths worked out using spherical geometry? And really, why would there not be detailed maps at least of all of the most populated areas and major air routes over the ocean that could be pieced together into a relatively accurate map of this supposed flat earth, if in fact those millions of flights were over a relatively flat earth? Are all commercial, military and private pilots in on this grand conspiracy to deceive the rest of us into believing that the earth is round?

And wouldn't a lot of passengers have complained by now if all of the flights in the southern hemisphere took much longer than the airlines say they should take and are actually being flown each and every day? I saw a youtube video where someone claimed that these flights are scheduled but never actually happen. Don't you think thousands of travelers would have complained by now that they are unable to book regularly scheduled flights listed on multiple airlines and flight booking sites? I personally have flown from Sydney to Perth, and it took about 5 hours. Where are all of the other stymied travelers who are not getting where they want to go, or who are landing hours and hours later than they were promised?

Discussing things on this site can feel like talking to empty space, or I am asked why I have not left yet To his credit, at least Tom Bishop tried to respond, albeit briefly and at times nonsensically, to my questions. Anyone else want to take a shot?

#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2017, 09:13:18 PM »
The typical flat earth map is what is called a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection. As described on Wikipedia, "It has the useful properties that all points on the map are at proportionately correct distances from the center point, and that all points on the map are at the correct azimuth (direction) from the center point. A useful application for this type of projection is a polar projection which shows all meridians (lines of longitude) as straight, with distances from the pole represented correctly. The flag of the United Nations contains an example of a polar azimuthal equidistant projection. It is useful for showing airline distances from center point of projection and for seismic and radio work."

So it shows fairly accurate distances for north/south airline flights in the Northern Hemisphere including all great circle flights that go near the north pole, as those flights would travel generally north and then generally south, such as Los Angeles to Dubai. And if you plot these flights on this kind of map, distances and the path flown are pretty close to being accurate. Flights due east or west would be less accurate and more so as you move further away from the pole. Once you reach the Southern Hemisphere, then east /west distances are all messed up. This is why continents in the Northern Hemisphere look pretty porportional to their actual shape. Then as you approach and cross the equator to the south, things get more and more messed up which is why South America and Australia look so disproportional to the shape they would be if you measured them from the air (you can use the flight tracker linked to above to check this, and Sydney to Perth is the easiest example to check).

Just for fun, below is a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection using the South Pole as the center point.

And guess what? Now everything stated above is still true if you simply swap the words North and South. Continents and flight paths in the Southern Hemisphere suddenly look relatively correct and the continents and flight paths in the North are all messed up....and I mean really messed up!!

I am not surprised that  no one has argued for a flat earth with the south pole at the center! And this is true, even though many other aspects of the flat earth model would work almost as well such as the path of the sun and moon in the sky. Luckily for flat earth proponents, most of the earth's population lives in the Northern Hemisphere, so the gross discrepancies in their map do not jump out at people who are north-centric in their worldview.

It is also ironic that the main map used by flat earth proponents is actually created by projecting the earth as it appears on a globe onto a flat surface. Their own map is based on a globe! The bipolar map is a Gott-Mugnolo Azimuthal projection which is a similar projection taken with a point on the equator as the center, and while it does correct some distances, it also has distortions and also is a projection taken from a globe!!

Can't the flat earthers come up with their own map without cheating off of the globe?
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 10:59:23 PM by Nirmala »

#### SexWarrior

• e
• 5820
• (◕‿◕✿)
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #25 on: March 29, 2017, 11:42:26 PM »
The typical flat earth map is what is called a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection.

[...]

The bipolar map is a Gott-Mugnolo Azimuthal projection
Both FES maps severely predate their use as "projections" of the hypothetical globe Earth. But hey, nice try!
<Parsifal> Jesus Christ
<Parsifal> Do I really have to write 6000-word sentences just to remove all ambiguity from everything I'm saying?

#### Flatout

• 239
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2017, 12:30:04 AM »
The typical flat earth map is what is called a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection.

[...]

The bipolar map is a Gott-Mugnolo Azimuthal projection
Both FES maps severely predate their use as "projections" of the hypothetical globe Earth. But hey, nice try!
Which FES maps?  What years?  The first writings about azimuthal project are before 1100 AD.

#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2017, 01:01:12 AM »
The typical flat earth map is what is called a Polar Azimuthal Equidistant Projection.

[...]

The bipolar map is a Gott-Mugnolo Azimuthal projection
Both FES maps severely predate their use as "projections" of the hypothetical globe Earth. But hey, nice try!
Which FES maps?  What years?  The first writings about azimuthal project are before 1100 AD.

The first known globe was created 2100 years ago, and the oldest existent globe is from 1492.

On this page, it suggests that early Greek philosophers used trigonometry to project how the earth would look from space to create some early maps....so even they were working from the concept of a globe: https://www.wired.com/2014/11/get-to-know-a-projection-azimuthal-orthographic/

But clearly the maps on this website are taken from more recent globes as they show Australia and Anarctica discovered in 1606 and 1820 or thereabouts.

And none of this actually counters any of the flight data I have posted that is based on spherical earth calculations and confirmed by actual recorded flight times. Even if there are maps predating modern globes, do they have accurate distances between all points as calculated by spherical trigonometry, depicted on any modern globe, and measured by modern aircraft? Where are the flat earth maps that accomplish this relatively simple task given that they are supposed to represent a roughly two-dimensional surface? Why do globes accomplish this task when no flat map is able to do so without distortion?

#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #28 on: March 30, 2017, 03:38:10 PM »
Discussing which came first, the flat earth map or a globe is a red herring when one is grossly inaccurate and one is completely accurate.

Do any flat earthers have a better map or a rational explanation as to why their map is so grossly inaccurate, when the flight data is there to clearly document that the actual distances between airports is identical to those shown on a globe?

Or maybe instead you can distract us again from this discussion by referring to maps from hundreds of years ago that do not even show all of the continents? Is that the best you can do?

#### SexWarrior

• e
• 5820
• (◕‿◕✿)
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #29 on: March 30, 2017, 07:04:56 PM »
Discussing which came first, the flat earth map or a globe is a red herring when one is grossly inaccurate and one is completely accurate.
Agreed, I'm just being very generous by entertaining the globe Earth as a possibility. If you'd rather, I can stop being so nice.
<Parsifal> Jesus Christ
<Parsifal> Do I really have to write 6000-word sentences just to remove all ambiguity from everything I'm saying?

#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #30 on: March 30, 2017, 08:25:04 PM »
Discussing which came first, the flat earth map or a globe is a red herring when one is grossly inaccurate and one is completely accurate.
Agreed, I'm just being very generous by entertaining the globe Earth as a possibility. If you'd rather, I can stop being so nice.

Can't you both be nice and show me air flight data that contradicts the flight paths and distances as calculated on a globe or sphere? Or show me flight data that consistently corresponds to a two dimensional map of the earth? Or even show me a two dimensional map of the earth that does not grossly distort the shape and size of some continents, as well as the distances between airports located on those continents? I was merely pointing out that the question of how old maps are does not address 99% of what I have been writing about on here. Do you have any good reliable information to share that contradicts the data I have shared? There is no need to be unkind if you have valid information to share.

#### Ptolemy

##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #31 on: April 01, 2017, 05:13:32 PM »
Stop arguing and trying to use math and science to prove something that is beyond our comprehension.

I'll go in a pressurized cabin , attached to weather ballons, pressurized suit and jump out at a determined altitude, I'll need a pressurized suit, helmet and oxygen with 2 parachutes, main and back up. Also a floatation device in the event I land in water. I will wear multiple cameras as well as audio devices.

#### Ptolemy

##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #32 on: April 01, 2017, 05:51:32 PM »
@Nirmala, your argument of the Australian flight will not hold up in factual based theories because the "speed" of the aircraft is the determining factor in the distance calculated. I recently flew from New York to Taiwan, 38000 feet at approx 600mph. Tbh, I do not think the true speed is given, therefore your argument does not have substantial discovery to base an argument on.

Conversely, your speed of x is determined with a distance y that can not be confirmed.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 06:01:48 PM by Ptolemy »

#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #33 on: April 01, 2017, 06:11:37 PM »
@Nirmala, your argument of the Australian flight will not hold up in factual based theories because the "speed" of the aircraft is the determining factor in the distance calculated. I recently flew from New York to Taiwan, 38000 feet at approx 600mph. Tbh, I do not think the true speed is given, therefore your argument does not have substantial discovery to base an argument on.

The flight data for that Sydney to Perth flight shows the average speed on this trip as 409 mph at https://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA581, which makes sense since the top cruising speed of the Airbus 330-200 aircraft is 541 mph (http://planes.axlegeeks.com/l/232/Airbus-A330-200). Remember that the total flight time includes time on the ground taxiing to and from the terminal, as well as slower speeds near takeoff and landing.

So, I do not understand the point of your post as the flight data says the flight is 2039 miles long. The speed is given as averaging 409 mph. The last 14 flights all were 5 hours or less except one that took 5 hours and 8 minutes. How much more data do you need? I am glad you were able to fly somewhere at 600 mph, but that does not contradict the actual flight data posted for these specific flights.

By the way, what airline and what exact flight did you take from New York to Taiwan? You could look it up on the flightaware database and see what is listed for average flight speed for that route also.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 08:41:56 PM by Nirmala »

#### Ptolemy

##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #34 on: April 01, 2017, 06:40:06 PM »
I do not trust the flight data that you are referencing is even remotely accurate.

Federal Aviation Administration works hand in hand with NASA

Eva Air was the airline.
Jfk to Taiwan int. Airport
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 06:43:17 PM by Ptolemy »

#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2017, 07:30:43 PM »
I do not trust the flight data that you are referencing is even remotely accurate.

Federal Aviation Administration works hand in hand with NASA

Eva Air was the airline.
Jfk to Taiwan int. Airport

So, are you saying that the CASA (the Australian equivalent of the FAA) and Quantas airlines are cooperating with NASA (a US government agency) to fudge the data on the flight tracking website to fool people into thinking the world is round? Why don't frequent fliers in Australia complain if the flight times do not match what is shown on Quantas' website? As I said, I have flown from Sydney to Perth and guess what? It took 5 hours. I doubt NASA can hack my wristwatch. Even at 600 mph which no Airbus 330-200 can manage, especially not when you include time on the ground taxiing and also lower speeds at takeoff and landing, then we are talking 3000 miles instead of 2000. The flat earth map shows Australia as twice as wide as the USA. I have driven from NYC to California and it was about 2800 miles following a somewhat less than straight route. In order for the flat earth map and my 5 hour flight from Sydney to Perth to make sense, the airplane must have been going about 1200 mph. Is NASA covering up the fact that commercial aircraft are traveling at almost twice the speed of sound?

And how about the people who drive from Sydney to Perth? Can NASA hack their odometer?

Exactly what data would you trust? I started this discussion by inviting a flat earther to circumnavigate the earth in the Southern Hemisphere on regular scheduled flights and then try to explain how they made it around in less than half the time that a flat earth map would require. Would you trust your own wristwatch on such a trip?

The last 10 or so EVA flights from JFK to Taiwan were reported to take about 16 hours on that flight tracking website. How long did your flight take? Are they lying about that route also? You can see the recorded flight speeds on this graph for a recent trip from JFK to Taipei: https://flightaware.com/live/flight/EVA31/history/20170331/0525Z/KJFK/RCTP/tracklog
The reported cruising speed of a Boeing 777 is 562 mph and for most of the trip, it was below that speed, and often well below that speed which is probably due to headwinds for portions of the trip.

It is easy to say that you do not trust the flight data on that website, but then there is little point in discussing this unless you either provide other data from trustworthy source or are willing to make the flights yourself and honestly report on how long it takes you to go around the earth in the Southern Hemisphere.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 07:40:34 PM by Nirmala »

#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #36 on: April 01, 2017, 08:41:01 PM »
I found another website where someone did some similar calculations regarding flight times versus distances on a globe and a flat earth map: http://creation.com/a-direct-test-of-the-flat-earth-model-flight-times

Interestingly, it is a Christian website. Also, the author of the article states in the comments that he and several other people who work in his ministry have personally flown many of the routes he used and so can personally verify that the flight times are correct.

I also noticed that he did not include the Sydney to Santiago (Australia to South America) route. If he had the flat earth data would have been even more erroneous, as that is where the greatest distortion in distances would have been measured. He included several routes that are mostly north/south routes. There is little or no distortion of distances along lines of longitude in the flat earth map, so those routes would be accurately measured on both a globe and flat earth map.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 08:43:50 PM by Nirmala »

#### Ptolemy

##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #37 on: April 01, 2017, 11:00:17 PM »
I'm not saying anyone hacked anything. You are. Forget the maps, I do not use maps anyway. I'm not saying NASA is covering up anything, you are. I just said I don't trust the data you receive from Quantas.

Odometer on a car, swriously?. You can drive 300 miles to get somewhere that is only 250 miles away.

I've been out to sea on an Aircraft Carrier. Water as far as you can see 360 degrees for days. Over 2 years at sea. I've watched the night sky for endless hours.

Ask yourself this. Map and circumnavigation aside. Do you really believe we landed on the moon? Furthermore, do you believe we have an ISS in orbit? 10's of thousands of satelites??

I have no problems. Take your face off the map, get your head out of mathematics and formulas and just look around. Do some basic experiments, watch a few videos.

How old are you?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 11:05:40 PM by Ptolemy »

#### Nirmala

• 223
##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #38 on: April 01, 2017, 11:08:35 PM »
Forget the maps, I do not use maps anyway. I'm not saying NASA is covering up anything, you are. I just said I don't trust the data you receive from Quantas.

Odometer on a car, swriously?. You can drive 300 miles to get somewhere that is only 250 miles away. I've been out to sea on an Aircraft Carrier, the Earth is flat.

Well this discussion was all based on the flat earth map, so if you have no use for maps, then I can see why you would disagree. And yes, you can drive 300 miles to get 250...which is why I quoted the actual driving distance from Sydney to Perth above which is greater than the flying distance....but still thousands less than what is shown on flat earth maps.

And once again, I will say that it should be relatively easy to create a correct flat earth map...but instead every FE map I have seen is crap. And every globe I have seen corresponds perfectly with the flight data. And what reason would Quantas have to fudge their own flight data when it would piss off their own customers to no end? I would never fly on an airline that was consistently off by hours in their expected flight times.

As for the rest, those are all other topics not addressed above, so I will leave them be.

#### Ptolemy

##### Re: I'm looking for a volunteer, a true flat earth believer.
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2017, 12:08:03 AM »
The title of this thread has nothing to do with maps !!