Re: Trump
« Reply #1480 on: May 19, 2017, 04:38:17 PM »
I honestly don't believe Trump knows anything or is a secret spy.
The reason being is, he's too volatile and doesn't know how to be discrete.  He is, however, an easily manipulated pawn.

If anything, Russia has several advisors in his pocket feeding him info and ideas such as "The media is corrupt and evil" and "Everyone is wrong but you..."

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2472
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1481 on: May 19, 2017, 04:43:45 PM »
The entire Russian interference in the election thing is a complete diversion to hide the shady and criminal actions of Hillary Clinton. Someone hacked her campaign manager's email and leaked it to Wikileaks. It was shown that Hillary Clinton and her foundation was incredibly corrupt. Instead of answering for their misdeeds they blamed it on the Russians for "interfering with the election," when even if true, the only thing they did was give the American public greater transparency than they otherwise would not have had.

Re: Trump
« Reply #1482 on: May 19, 2017, 04:50:56 PM »
The entire Russian interference in the election thing is a complete diversion to hide the shady and criminal actions of Hillary Clinton. Someone hacked her campaign manager's email and leaked it to Wikileaks. It was shown that Hillary Clinton and her foundation was incredibly corrupt. Instead of answering for their misdeeds they blamed it on the Russians for "interfering with the election," when even if true, the only thing they did was give the American public greater transparency than they otherwise would not have had.

And yet, Trump has not brought charges against her.
Explain that one.

*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 1380
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1483 on: May 19, 2017, 04:53:45 PM »
I honestly don't believe Trump knows anything or is a secret spy.
The reason being is, he's too volatile and doesn't know how to be discrete.  He is, however, an easily manipulated pawn.

If anything, Russia has several advisors in his pocket feeding him info and ideas such as "The media is corrupt and evil" and "Everyone is wrong but you..."

I don't think there's much of a doubt that people close to Trump were working with the Russians. I maintain that his actions during the campaign and since he's taken presidency suggest guilt but with such a wild card it's hard to say if that's actual guilt or the bumbling reactions of a feeble insane old man to an increasingly frustrating situation. That is precisely why an independent investigation was so important and I do have faith that this one will be fair.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2472
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1484 on: May 19, 2017, 05:14:01 PM »
I honestly don't believe Trump knows anything or is a secret spy.
The reason being is, he's too volatile and doesn't know how to be discrete.  He is, however, an easily manipulated pawn.

If anything, Russia has several advisors in his pocket feeding him info and ideas such as "The media is corrupt and evil" and "Everyone is wrong but you..."

I don't think there's much of a doubt that people close to Trump were working with the Russians. I maintain that his actions during the campaign and since he's taken presidency suggest guilt but with such a wild card it's hard to say if that's actual guilt or the bumbling reactions of a feeble insane old man to an increasingly frustrating situation. That is precisely why an independent investigation was so important and I do have faith that this one will be fair.

Who was working with the Russians on Trump's team? What General Michael Flynn was accused of, receiving money from "Russia" for a 2015 speech, was something that was done years before he joined Trump's White House team. He told trump when he joined that he was currently under investigation for that when he joined.

The charges against him are pretty ridiculous. He once gave a speech for the news organization Russia Today in 2015 and was paid money for his time. He wasn't even paid by the Russian Government. He didn't disclose this payment from that news organization in a security form, which may be considered a security violation and is certainly deserving of some small level of discipline. But being branded by the media as a "Russian Spy" is simply several magnitudes over the line.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 05:24:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 1380
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1485 on: May 19, 2017, 05:26:17 PM »
Sorry, Tom, I feel no more compelled to respond to you than I do to TTIOH, or Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity if they were wont to post here. It's a wasted effort.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2472
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1486 on: May 19, 2017, 05:30:26 PM »
Sorry, Tom, I feel no more compelled to respond to you than I do to TTIOH, or Tucker Carlson or Sean Hannity if they were wont to post here. It's a wasted effort.

Just answer. What did General Flynn do that was so terrible? He gave an interview/speech to Russia Today once in 2015 (when he was working for Obama, BY THE WAY) and was paid for his time. What is wrong with that? Bad on him for not properly disclosing that in a security form, but what is the big deal here?

The entire Russian interference in the election thing is a complete diversion to hide the shady and criminal actions of Hillary Clinton. Someone hacked her campaign manager's email and leaked it to Wikileaks. It was shown that Hillary Clinton and her foundation was incredibly corrupt. Instead of answering for their misdeeds they blamed it on the Russians for "interfering with the election," when even if true, the only thing they did was give the American public greater transparency than they otherwise would not have had.

And yet, Trump has not brought charges against her.
Explain that one.

It is not a coincidence that now that former FBI director James Comey is out of the picture all of this stuff about Hillary murdering Seth Rich is starting to pop up.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 05:34:11 PM by Tom Bishop »

*

Offline SexWarrior

  • e
  • *
  • Posts: 5817
  • (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Trump
« Reply #1487 on: May 19, 2017, 05:30:53 PM »
https://www.c-span.org/video/?427464-1/soviet-active-measures

yep totally retarded russia would never try to influence our elections or disrupt our political process.  they definitely haven't been using these same tactics for decades.

also what rama said.  the reasonable argument is that russia did what russia does and tried to disrupt our political process.  it worked.  some folks on trump's campaign team may have been knowingly complicit in some of those activities.  we should find out if that's true or not.
There is also the theory that Russia influenced the election, which is much more reasonable. It's pretty obvious they tried to do that just from Putin's endorsements, whether or not anything more clandestine happened is speculative to us proles that have no access the l33t intel.
Influenced how? If you mean that their media and leaders openly endorsed him and spread some dubious rumours worldwide to boost his popularity - sorry, that's hardly controversial. They can voice their views much like anyone else. The alternative would be censorship of the media, which would be a bigger issue.

So, yes, one can make a reasonable claim that Russia tried to influence the election, that Macedonian NEETs tried to influence the election, that Fox News tried to influence the election, that CNN did it, or even that garygreen did it. The reason why I don't find that notable is that while these claims are likely completely true, they're also simply business as usual.

That's also why the media narrative doesn't focus on it - it's simply not news. Hence the constant implications of collusion, treason, and covert actions that dominate the discussion.

So yeah, if you don't believe in the meme-conspiracy and instead think that media and hostile governments did what media and hostile governments always do: good on you, you happen not to be patently retarded. But it doesn't do anything to justify the paranoia and disruption to the political process that the Democrats are introducing entirely by themselves.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 05:32:46 PM by SexWarrior »
<Parsifal> Jesus Christ
<Parsifal> Do I really have to write 6000-word sentences just to remove all ambiguity from everything I'm saying?

Where live, do the offer adult reading classes?

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2472
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1488 on: May 19, 2017, 06:12:25 PM »
Whoever interfered with the election, by exposing the underhanded dealings and criminal actions of Hillary Clinton, did the country a service. They interfered with the election by giving us greater transparency. The Dems are whining and calling foul instead of accepting that Hillary Clinton was incredibly corrupt.

There is no Michale Flynn "collusion" with the Russian government -- all he is accused of is receiving payment for a speech/interview he once gave to Russia Today in 2015. Here is the interview he received $30,000 for. He is a very famous and respectable United States Lieutenant General and former Director of Defense Intelligence answering questions about the Middle East Crisis; someone who many news organizations around the world would love to interview. How does this interview make him a Russian spy or cast any doubt on his allegiance to the United States at all?

The accusations against Trump are completely fabricated. There is no evidence or merit whatsoever.

*

Offline Rama Set

  • *
  • Posts: 3932
  • Round and round...
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1489 on: May 19, 2017, 06:14:44 PM »
Influenced how? If you mean that their media and leaders openly endorsed him and spread some dubious rumours worldwide to boost his popularity - sorry, that's hardly controversial. They can voice their views much like anyone else. The alternative would be censorship of the media, which would be a bigger issue.

Which is what I said, everyone can see that Russia influenced the election to some degree.  No conspiracy there.

What has also been reported is that the Trump campaign had 18 undisclosed contacts with Russians, which is a no no.  Perhaps they were innocuous, perhaps not, but it is something that should be put to rest one way or the other.

There is no Michale Flynn "collusion" with the Russian government -- all he is accused of is receiving payment for a speech/interview he once gave to Russia Today in 2015.

Incorrect, this is not why he was dismissed as National Security Advisor.   

Quote
The accusations against Trump are completely fabricated. There is no evidence or merit whatsoever.

The Trump campaign also had 18 undisclosed communications with Russia, which after the actions of Michael Flynn just further muddies the waters. 


FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

*

Offline honk

  • *
  • Posts: 407
  • resident goose
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1490 on: May 19, 2017, 06:15:51 PM »
Influenced how? If you mean that their media and leaders openly endorsed him and spread some dubious rumours worldwide to boost his popularity - sorry, that's hardly controversial. They can voice their views much like anyone else. The alternative would be censorship of the media, which would be a bigger issue.

So, yes, one can make a reasonable claim that Russia tried to influence the election, that Macedonian NEETs tried to influence the election, that Fox News tried to influence the election, that CNN did it, or even that garygreen did it. The reason why I don't find that notable is that while these claims are likely completely true, they're also simply business as usual.

All you're saying here is that you personally don't care, which is something that you've been saying a lot over the past few months. Surely you must have noticed by now that the media, the U.S. government, and the American people don't share your general lack of concern? Constantly using your own apathy as a measure for whether or not something deserves attention is not going to lead anywhere productive.

Quote
That's also why the media narrative doesn't focus on it - it's simply not news. Hence the constant implications of collusion, treason, and covert actions that dominate the discussion.

So yeah, if you don't believe in the meme-conspiracy and instead think that media and hostile governments did what media and hostile governments always do: good on you, you happen not to be patently retarded. But it doesn't do anything to justify the paranoia and disruption to the political process that the Democrats are introducing entirely by themselves.

You're greatly exaggerating the supposed outlandishness of the current situation. If Russia was eager to swing the election in favor of Trump, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that one of the many Trump aides with ties to Russia might have been clued in to what was going on in order to take best advantage of it. That's not paranoid, it's not a meme, and it's not retarded. It would be far more retarded to promptly dismiss it the way you're doing.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

*

Offline Tom Bishop

  • Zetetic Council Member
  • **
  • Posts: 2472
  • Flat Earth Believer
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1491 on: May 19, 2017, 06:46:21 PM »
Influenced how? If you mean that their media and leaders openly endorsed him and spread some dubious rumours worldwide to boost his popularity - sorry, that's hardly controversial. They can voice their views much like anyone else. The alternative would be censorship of the media, which would be a bigger issue.

Which is what I said, everyone can see that Russia influenced the election to some degree.  No conspiracy there.

What has also been reported is that the Trump campaign had 18 undisclosed contacts with Russians, which is a no no.  Perhaps they were innocuous, perhaps not, but it is something that should be put to rest one way or the other.

There is no Michale Flynn "collusion" with the Russian government -- all he is accused of is receiving payment for a speech/interview he once gave to Russia Today in 2015.

Incorrect, this is not why he was dismissed as National Security Advisor.   

Quote
The accusations against Trump are completely fabricated. There is no evidence or merit whatsoever.

The Trump campaign also had 18 undisclosed communications with Russia, which after the actions of Michael Flynn just further muddies the waters.

18 communications with who? Russian media outlets who want to interview Donald Trump? From an ambassador who wants to meet Donald Trump? From any of the perfectly LEGITIMATE reasons there are to answer a call from a Russian phone number?

The people who saw those "18 communications" which include electronic messages even admit the legitimacy of such:

    "The people who described the contacts to Reuters said they had seen no evidence of wrongdoing or collusion between the campaign and Russia in the communications reviewed so far..."

Per the actions of Michael Flynn -- you mean this Q&A session he participated in with Russia Today to talk about the Middle East Crisis? They paid him $30,000 to cover his time and travel and you think this made a United States General into an untrustable Russian spy?

There is nothing here. Nothing. It is absolutely a witch hunt.

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5784
  • Videmus Omnia
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1492 on: May 19, 2017, 06:51:53 PM »
Tom is right. The constant barrage of empty conspiracy theories about Trump and Russia are meant as a distraction from the DNC leaks. These allegations aren't targeted at Trump supporters, since they've been dealing with this for almost two years now, this distraction is meant for people who voted for Hillary in the first place. They want to make sure that voters don't settle with Trump and start reviewing Hillary's record during the election. In other words, the DNC is not trying to get Trump voters to vote Democrat, they're scrambling to ensure that Democrat voters keep voting Democrat even after it has been revealed that the entire DNC is thoroughly corrupt. They want Bernie voters to forget that the DNC destroyed Bernie just to push a losing candidate forward.

The Democrats were devastated in Congress, obliterated in the Executive branch and demolished across state legislature races. Their power is now almost pathetically nonexistent and this conspiracy gibberish is the only outlet they have left. They want to convince everyone the current administration is full of traitors and people that can't be trusted so that you turn around and vote them back in. It's a desperate move from a desperate party.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 06:55:46 PM by Rushy »

*

Offline SexWarrior

  • e
  • *
  • Posts: 5817
  • (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Trump
« Reply #1493 on: May 19, 2017, 06:57:30 PM »
Which is what I said, everyone can see that Russia influenced the election to some degree.  No conspiracy there.
Then you and I are in agreement. Now we just need to get Saddam, the meme-conspiracy Democrats, and some of the American media on our side.

What has also been reported is that the Trump campaign had 18 undisclosed contacts with Russians, which is a no no.  Perhaps they were innocuous, perhaps not, but it is something that should be put to rest one way or the other.
Agreed, which is why I support an independent investigation. I do not support fearmongering, spurious accusations, and sabotaging the government because "oh no Russia".

All you're saying here is that you personally don't care, which is something that you've been saying a lot over the past few months.
That is not even remotely close to what I'm saying, or anything I have ever said here.

Surely you must have noticed by now that the media, the U.S. government, and the American people don't share your general lack of concern?
No - it's just a subset of very vocal Democrats pretending they're relevant. As garygreen rightly pointed out, it's useless to act as if they were representative of the country as a whole. They do deserve condemnation and ridicule, but that's it.

Constantly using your own apathy as a measure for whether or not something deserves attention is not going to lead anywhere productive.
You have a very strange idea of what apathy is. I'm expressing resentment towards Democrats such as you who are trying to destabilise the country because they're butthurt about a political outcome. It's just about the opposite of apathy.

You're greatly exaggerating the supposed outlandishness of the current situation.
Oh, and here I thought I'm the apathetic one. Apparently now I care too much. Can you at least make up your mind about what kind of wrong I am?

If Russia was eager to swing the election in favor of Trump, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that one of the many Trump aides with ties to Russia might have been clued in to what was going on in order to take best advantage of it.
Right, so you're completely open about suspecting a conspiracy. I'm glad we've established that.

That's not paranoid, it's not a meme, and it's not retarded.
It is all of those things, assuming you're speaking with genuine conviction. To assume guilt without any evidence is utter madness, and to support the minority party attempting to completely paralyse the government under that excuse is more damaging than even the worst-case scenario of the meme-conspiracy.

It would be far more retarded to promptly dismiss it the way you're doing.
But I'm not doing that at all. I said multiple times by now that I think it makes sense to investigate the matter. What I oppose is the Democratic Party and its media outlets attempting to drive your country into the ground in a sad attempt to reclaim power.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 07:11:11 PM by SexWarrior »
<Parsifal> Jesus Christ
<Parsifal> Do I really have to write 6000-word sentences just to remove all ambiguity from everything I'm saying?

Where live, do the offer adult reading classes?

*

Offline SexWarrior

  • e
  • *
  • Posts: 5817
  • (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Trump
« Reply #1494 on: May 19, 2017, 07:18:12 PM »
Welp, Rushy put this more succinctly than I ever could.
<Parsifal> Jesus Christ
<Parsifal> Do I really have to write 6000-word sentences just to remove all ambiguity from everything I'm saying?

Where live, do the offer adult reading classes?

*

Offline Roundy

  • Abdicator of the Zetetic Council
  • *
  • Posts: 1380
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1495 on: May 19, 2017, 07:46:57 PM »
All this Hillary stuff is a transparent attempt by the Right to deflect from the real issues. It's become kind of tiresome; things go bad, remind the base that Hillary was an evil corrupt criminal and suggest the heat against the president is a smokescreen to help her get away with it. Yawn. It works because Trump's supporters so desperately don't want to be wrong that their choice in the election was in any way sane or rational given what we already knew about him.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

*

Offline SexWarrior

  • e
  • *
  • Posts: 5817
  • (◕‿◕✿)
    • View Profile
    • The Flat Earth Society
Re: Trump
« Reply #1496 on: May 19, 2017, 08:40:55 PM »
The Economist's commentary on the meme-conspiracy trying to deflect from real issues is pretty much spot-on.

<Parsifal> Jesus Christ
<Parsifal> Do I really have to write 6000-word sentences just to remove all ambiguity from everything I'm saying?

Where live, do the offer adult reading classes?

*

Offline Rushy

  • Planar Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5784
  • Videmus Omnia
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1497 on: May 19, 2017, 08:43:30 PM »
All this Hillary stuff is a transparent attempt by the Right to deflect from the real issues. It's become kind of tiresome; things go bad, remind the base that Hillary was an evil corrupt criminal and suggest the heat against the president is a smokescreen to help her get away with it. Yawn. It works because Trump's supporters so desperately don't want to be wrong that their choice in the election was in any way sane or rational given what we already knew about him.

The "heat against the president" doesn't actually exist outside of media outlets. Republicans are now more politically powerful than they have been in decades and Democrats have almost no political capital whatsoever. Like I said, this "Trump is a traitor" business isn't for Trump supporters. They don't care about Trump voters. They care that they're hemorrhaging core Democrat voters. Their center base is now voting Republican down the ballot and their hard left base wants straight socialism. The party is splitting uncontrollably and now the only thing to do is try to drum up support by claiming the current administration is full of Russian spies. Even people who voted for Hillary as president voted for Republican congressmen. That's a huge red flag for the DNC.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 08:45:56 PM by Rushy »

*

Offline honk

  • *
  • Posts: 407
  • resident goose
    • View Profile
Re: Trump
« Reply #1498 on: May 19, 2017, 09:34:07 PM »
Tom is right. The constant barrage of empty conspiracy theories about Trump and Russia are meant as a distraction from the DNC leaks. These allegations aren't targeted at Trump supporters, since they've been dealing with this for almost two years now, this distraction is meant for people who voted for Hillary in the first place. They want to make sure that voters don't settle with Trump and start reviewing Hillary's record during the election. In other words, the DNC is not trying to get Trump voters to vote Democrat, they're scrambling to ensure that Democrat voters keep voting Democrat even after it has been revealed that the entire DNC is thoroughly corrupt. They want Bernie voters to forget that the DNC destroyed Bernie just to push a losing candidate forward.

The Democrats were devastated in Congress, obliterated in the Executive branch and demolished across state legislature races. Their power is now almost pathetically nonexistent and this conspiracy gibberish is the only outlet they have left. They want to convince everyone the current administration is full of traitors and people that can't be trusted so that you turn around and vote them back in. It's a desperate move from a desperate party.

Why the hell would anybody waste their time worrying about Hillary? She's not the president, Trump is. It's not a conspiracy that people are more concerned with what the President of the United States is up to than his defeated opponent, who no longer holds any office at all.
ur retartet but u donut even no it and i walnut tell u y

Re: Trump
« Reply #1499 on: May 19, 2017, 10:20:02 PM »
i agree with virtually every word of this national review article: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/446339/donald-trump-russia-2016-election-controversy-explained

Quote
We don’t know the most important facts of the case, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t know anything important. It’s important and troubling to know that members of the intelligence community are seemingly leaking with impunity to damage Trump. It’s important and troubling to know that Trump has lost key aides because of their Russia ties, and that Trump and his team continue struggling to tell the truth about their Russian contacts. And it’s important and troubling to know that huge swaths of the American political establishment are being exposed as purely partisan.

The FBI is continuing its investigation, and so are the House and Senate intelligence committees (though Nunes’s House committee is in a state of chaos). Every major media publication is feverishly chasing the various threads of the story. It’s entirely possible that we’re not at the beginning of the end of this scandal, but rather at the end of the beginning. It’s also entirely possible that the end, when it comes, will leave political casualties on all sides, from bureaucrats who may face prosecution for unlawful leaks to public figures who may face ruin for unlawful or inappropriate foreign contacts.

One thing is clear: The Russian government has run one of the most cost-effective and disruptive espionage operations in history. Through a few simple hacks of the DNC, some basic online trolling, and garden-variety propaganda spread by modern means, the Kremlin has turned a superpower’s politics upside down. Its chief geopolitical rival is divided, with leaders obviously more furious at each other than at the foreign power who created the crisis. Russia may well face a day of reckoning for its attack on our democracy, but for now it has won, and the magnitude of its victory increases with each petty and partisan turn in Washington’s most consequential drama.
shitposting leftists are never alone