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Offline Rama Set

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2016, 11:39:14 PM »
W0w you're so smart!  Have you found a source yet that is not an FAQ?
Have you learned how to do your own research instead of just spitballing like a gimp at the back of the short-bus? It seems you haven't.
My condolences to your parents.

I have, and none of the sources I read are FAQs.  Now please insult my parents again.  I will give you a topic: My Mom has Parkinson's.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2016, 12:59:42 AM »
Now please insult my parents again.  I will give you a topic: My Mom has Parkinson's.

It seems we can add the definition of "condolences" to the list of things you don't know the meaning of, which leaves your mother doubly burdened because she also has a son who is something less than a halfwit. I'm sure it grieves her something awful, and that's a mark against you, not her.

Every reply you make reveals more and more that you haven't a single clue how the simple proof that the LLR is a hoax can be refuted. But rather than exploring the issue further on your own to determine what's going on, you perseverate due to your own mental dysfunction.

Your being a clueless simpleton is repulsive enough, but now that you're in the throes of denial its truly grotesque. Go back to your video games, man-child - and have dear sainted mumsy wipe your bottom if necessary (I can only imagine the odor that must permanently emanate from your vicinity).

EDIT: I strike that last part out because it is too personal and I wouldn't want it misconstrued as an attack on mother or son
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 02:29:04 AM by Setec Astronomy »

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2016, 02:44:02 AM »
http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf

Quote
The relative alignment between the outgoing beam and the receiver may not be an obviously
variable parameter. But one must intentionally point ahead of the lunar reflector—to where it
will be in 1.25 seconds—while looking behind the “current” position of the reflector—to where
it was 1.25 seconds ago. At the transverse velocity of the moon (∼ 1, 000 m/s), this translates
to approximately 1.4 arcsec of intentional misalignment between transmitter and receiver. But
because the telescope mount is driven on altitude and azimuth axes, the offset direction rotates
relative to the instrument depending on where the moon is in the sky. Additionally, the earth
rotation (∼ 400 m/s) changes the magnitude of the necessary offset. Because these effects are
comparable in magnitude to the divergence of the beam (∼ 1 arcsec) and to the field of view of the
receiver (1.4 arcsec), they must be accommodated in an adjustable manner.

« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 03:18:09 AM by garygreen »
Go FLIP yourself in a MUTHAFLIPPIN SACK

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2016, 03:19:43 AM »
http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf

Quote
The relative alignment between the outgoing beam and the receiver may not be an obviously
variable parameter. But one must intentionally point ahead of the lunar reflector—to where it
will be in 1.25 seconds—while looking behind the “current” position of the reflector—to where
it was 1.25 seconds ago. At the transverse velocity of the moon (∼ 1, 000 m/s), this translates
to approximately 1.4 arcsec of intentional misalignment between transmitter and receiver. But
because the telescope mount is driven on altitude and azimuth axes, the offset direction rotates
relative to the instrument depending on where the moon is in the sky. Additionally, the earth
rotation (∼ 400 m/s) changes the magnitude of the necessary offset. Because these effects are
comparable in magnitude to the divergence of the beam (∼ 1 arcsec) and to the field of view of the
receiver (1.4 arcsec), they must be accommodated in an adjustable manner.
Splendid find!

Now, as I said let's assume that they compensate for the lightspeed delay by "overshooting" the moon. Unfortunately the fixed retro-reflector cannot be aimed back in a way that will appropriately "overshoot" the earth for the reflected laser to be in the necessary range of the observatory. They ignore this half of the alignment problem (because it is indeed insurmountable) by showing only a single spot (apparently "C" in the diagram) from which the laser is both sent and received despite the change in position between emission, corner-cube reflection, and return.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 03:22:25 AM by Setec Astronomy »

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2016, 04:37:48 AM »
Here is a simple animation I created to illustrate the problem I'm describing.

(scale and proportions are exaggerated so as to be readily apparent)





Or, alternatively:


Or:
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 05:13:02 AM by Setec Astronomy »

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #25 on: May 05, 2016, 07:00:33 AM »
And, the angle of the (real, not your illustration) lunar reflector relative to the earth's surface is?
Ignored by Intikam since 2016.

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2016, 09:36:42 AM »
And, the angle of the (real, not your illustration) lunar reflector relative to the earth's surface is?
Before bogging yourself down with minutia, look at it logically. Here's a straightforward gedankenexperiment:

Imagine both locations on the earth and moon have a retroreflector and a powerful telescope and laser. Each telescope is trained on the other's location, so everything its seeing is 1.3 (or, without rounding, 1.25) seconds in the past.

On earth we look through the telescope at the retroreflector on the moon, aim the laser directly at it's apparent position - and it would miss. The earth-based laser must be aimed ahead at an offset from the lunar retroreflector's apparent position as seen through the telescope in order to strike it.

Yet looking through the lunar telescope at the retroreflector on earth, if the laser is aimed directly at it's apparent position - it wouldn't miss. This is equivalent to what is happening in the LLR when the retroreflector bounces light directly back toward the source's apparent location and is detected.

That is a contradiction, an inconsistency, it makes no sense as there is only one path light can take from point A to point B... and yet the LLR experiment hinges on this contradiction somehow being true (actually it hinges on it being overlooked).

There are many other problems with LLR and modern cosmology in general and space seance science in particular, other avenues which lead to understanding there is a nearly indescribable level of fakery and deception at play. This is just one that jumps out as being somewhat easy to begin unravelling. All that's required is willingness to look into the right rabbit-holes. BUT Most people just Won't want to wake up from the dream.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 09:38:21 AM by Setec Astronomy »

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Offline Pongo

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2016, 12:14:41 PM »
Setec Astronomy, please review the rules of the forum. Personal attacks are against the rules.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=977.0

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2016, 12:46:13 PM »
And, the angle of the (real, not your illustration) lunar reflector relative to the earth's surface is?
Before bogging yourself down with minutia, look at it logically. Here's a straightforward gedankenexperiment:

Imagine both locations on the earth and moon have a retroreflector and a powerful telescope and laser. Each telescope is trained on the other's location, so everything its seeing is 1.3 (or, without rounding, 1.25) seconds in the past.

On earth we look through the telescope at the retroreflector on the moon, aim the laser directly at it's apparent position - and it would miss. The earth-based laser must be aimed ahead at an offset from the lunar retroreflector's apparent position as seen through the telescope in order to strike it.

Yet looking through the lunar telescope at the retroreflector on earth, if the laser is aimed directly at it's apparent position - it wouldn't miss. This is equivalent to what is happening in the LLR when the retroreflector bounces light directly back toward the source's apparent location and is detected.

That is a contradiction, an inconsistency, it makes no sense as there is only one path light can take from point A to point B... and yet the LLR experiment hinges on this contradiction somehow being true (actually it hinges on it being overlooked).

There are many other problems with LLR and modern cosmology in general and space seance science in particular, other avenues which lead to understanding there is a nearly indescribable level of fakery and deception at play. This is just one that jumps out as being somewhat easy to begin unravelling. All that's required is willingness to look into the right rabbit-holes. BUT Most people just Won't want to wake up from the dream.
But, you didn't answer my question though.

If you aim ahead, and if you hit the retro reflector, and the retro reflectors angle relative to the location on the surface of the earth where the pulse is emitted from isn't parallel, but angled in a way that the pulse is reflected back to the point it was emitted from, taking earth's rotation and the time it takes for the light to travel the total distance into account, is it then possible, also given the fact that the beam has a diameter of X km?

If yes, the question was: what angle does the retro reflector on the moon have relative to the surface of the earth? (and moons for that matter)
Ignored by Intikam since 2016.

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2016, 01:39:52 PM »
So here's why it works: Divergence.

This isn't a simple point to point, this is a cone.  Much like a flashlight, you can see from multiple angles. 
Plus, the rotation of the earth only changes the ANGLE the light needs to be seen from, not the location.  After all, even at 100km away, the point on the moon is still visible.  And, as I'm sure you're aware having stared at the moon for long periods of time, the view doesn't really change.  You don't see different shadows hour by hour because it's so far away that any shift in angle is irrelevant. 

So basically: You can see it cause it's spread out at an angle.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2016, 02:16:52 PM »
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h, its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2016, 03:00:16 PM »
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h, its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.

Yes but from lunar orbit, the earth spins at a much faster, apparent rate.  It has to get through a much wider arc of distance in the same time span.  Which I think is like 27km/s. 

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2016, 03:06:56 PM »
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h, its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.

Yes but from lunar orbit, the earth spins at a much faster, apparent rate.  It has to get through a much wider arc of distance in the same time span.  Which I think is like 27km/s.

I am not sure how that is relevant.  From the perspective of the observer on Earth, the light pulse takes 2.5 seconds to return and they will have moved 1.16kms around the Earth's axis.  Why do you think a change of FOR is required?
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2016, 03:19:51 PM »
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h, its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.

Yes but from lunar orbit, the earth spins at a much faster, apparent rate.  It has to get through a much wider arc of distance in the same time span.  Which I think is like 27km/s.

I am not sure how that is relevant.  From the perspective of the observer on Earth, the light pulse takes 2.5 seconds to return and they will have moved 1.16kms around the Earth's axis.  Why do you think a change of FOR is required?
You're right. 

Mystery solved.

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2016, 07:38:34 PM »
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h, its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.
There are other velocities not being accounted for. For one, the earth is not only rotating, it is also orbiting - and this positional change is 108,000 km/h or about 30 km per second. Velocities cannot be added to light. The trajectory and return of the beam will always be relative to the exact spot it was emitted from at the instantaneous moment of emission. If it didn't, that would violate the laws of physics. You have to imagine viewing the whole setup from a position that is not in a rotating or orbiting reference frame. The retroreflector will bounce it back to where it was, not where it is.

EDIT: here is another animation more illustrative of the dynamics (one again, not to scale)



Setec Astronomy, please review the rules of the forum. Personal attacks are against the rules.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=977.0
Noted, and my apologies. It won't happen again.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2016, 10:32:08 PM by Setec Astronomy »

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2016, 11:34:26 AM »
This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #36 on: May 06, 2016, 02:31:21 PM »
At the equator, the rotational velocity is 1670km/h, its highest rate anywhere on Earth.  Assuming a 2.5 second round trip, the detector will only have moved 1.16kms when the photons return from the moon, well within the 20km diameter of the light cone.

NB: I am fully admitting that I was wrong earlier.
There are other velocities not being accounted for. For one, the earth is not only rotating, it is also orbiting - and this positional change is 108,000 km/h or about 30 km per second. Velocities cannot be added to light. The trajectory and return of the beam will always be relative to the exact spot it was emitted from at the instantaneous moment of emission. If it didn't, that would violate the laws of physics. You have to imagine viewing the whole setup from a position that is not in a rotating or orbiting reference frame. The retroreflector will bounce it back to where it was, not where it is.


I am exploring the issue surrounding the Earth's orbital velocity.  I will get back to this when I have something meaningful to say.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2016, 05:02:59 PM »
This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/


Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2016, 05:41:12 PM »
This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/



No, the distance of a few nanometers is too much. 

But seriously, you just proved CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays don't work.
So, how do they work, if not by laser?

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2016, 06:22:14 PM »


This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/



Did you ever bother to check the angle of the reflector relative to earth? This is the third time I've asked you, and is pretty freaking relevant.

You assume the pulse is reflected in a tangent angle. It's not.
Ignored by Intikam since 2016.