The Flat Earth Society

Other Discussion Boards => Science & Alternative Science => Topic started by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on June 24, 2014, 07:55:35 AM

Title: Infinity
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on June 24, 2014, 07:55:35 AM
I might as well post this on the forum where I still know some of the people.

Analytic continuation allows us to approximate an infinite series as a function. The more terms you add to the series, the more accurately you describe the function. So at the limit, when you have all the terms, that series can be considered equal to that function.

This allows us to assign meaningful numerical values to infinite series, even divergent ones.

For example, the infinite series "1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5... " can be evaluated. However, the result is disturbingly counter-intuitive. If you stop adding terms at any finite point, you'll have a larger and larger number as the result. However, if you "evaluate this after an infinite number of terms, you'll find the sum to actually be -1/12.

There are a variety of proofs for this, and this number is demonstrably a meaningful . This result is actually seen in physics. Furthermore this result is a foundation in string theory for the number of required dimensions.
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 24, 2014, 06:05:11 PM
But Singy, infinity isn't even a real number. Why do you bother with things that don't exist? :-B
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Ghost of V on June 24, 2014, 06:06:22 PM
Are you asking us a question or just showing off?  :-B
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Shane on June 24, 2014, 08:10:06 PM
Interesting.
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Blanko on June 24, 2014, 08:11:12 PM
Hey I watched that episode of Numberphile as well  :-B
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: fappenhosen on June 24, 2014, 09:06:48 PM
http://www.numberphile.com/videos/analytical_continuation1.html

Cool.
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: spoon on June 25, 2014, 03:01:57 AM
Are you asking us a question or just showing off?  :-B

Neither really.
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Rushy on June 25, 2014, 03:36:59 AM
But Singy, infinity isn't even a real number. Why do you bother with things that don't exist? :-B

This. Numbers aren't real. A smart guy once told me so. Nothing made out of numbers actually exists.
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on June 25, 2014, 04:54:08 AM
Are you asking us a question or just showing off?  :-B
Sharing something I found interesting, and leaving it open for questions/discussion. I expected for "no's" and "wtf's" like I did when I first came across it. I feel like I would have had to discover the proof to be a show off. Instead I'm reading other people's life work.
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on June 25, 2014, 04:57:27 AM
But Singy, infinity isn't even a real number. Why do you bother with things that don't exist? :-B

This. Numbers aren't real. A smart guy once told me so. Nothing made out of numbers actually exists.
Please send me a pm of your checking/banking account numbers and pins. Sounds like you wont miss them. <3
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Eddy Baby on June 25, 2014, 09:51:58 AM
Shouldn't there be some minuses in there somewhere
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Pete Svarrior on June 25, 2014, 10:12:08 AM
Shouldn't there be some minuses in there somewhere
No, it's meant to be counter-intuitive
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: EnigmaZV on June 25, 2014, 08:56:07 PM
Well, if string theory needs it, then it must be important.
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Rama Set on June 25, 2014, 10:42:24 PM
Nothing made out of numbers actually exists.

So Nothing usually does not exist but when you make nothing from numbers it actually does exist?

My brain hurts.
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Rushy on June 26, 2014, 03:33:05 AM
Please send me a pm of your checking/banking account numbers and pins. Sounds like you wont miss them. <3

I can't do that, they're not real. How am I supposed to send you numbers? You can't hold numbers in your hand, stupid.
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Ghost of V on July 10, 2014, 02:16:57 AM
Please send me a pm of your checking/banking account numbers and pins. Sounds like you wont miss them. <3

I can't do that, they're not real. How am I supposed to send you numbers? You can't hold numbers in your hand, stupid.

Fucking magnets, how do they work?
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: sandokhan on January 02, 2016, 01:26:32 PM
"Today's scientists have substituted mathematics for experiments, and they wander off through equation after equation, and eventually build a structure which has no relation to reality."

(Nikola Tesla)


The two scientists in the video are not mathematicians, but physicists; no mathematician who knows the theory of divergent series is going to tell you that Σ n (1 from infinity) = -1/12.

The physicists in the video have no idea or knowledge about Ramanujan summation, or the constant term of a divergent series, or the dangers/pitfalls in applying summation methods to divergent series.


For those who want to get an idea why Ramanujan is still considered the greatest mathematician who ever lived, here is the work, Collected Papers:

http://www.imsc.res.in/~rao/ramanujan/collectedindex.html

One of his most famous papers is "On the number of divisors of a number", article #8


Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: sandokhan on January 03, 2016, 08:24:00 AM
Now, let us carefully examine the colossal mistakes committed by the two physicists in obtaining the preposterous result:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/math/f/9/8/f98fa2eae8ba3eeea13695e76d746d5d.png)

The most that can be said, within the context of Ramanujan summation (a highly abstract mathematical setting) is that c, the constant of the series employed by Ramanujan (his "center of gravity" of a series), will equal -1/12.

By using the same reasoning, on the sum Σ1 (1 to infinity), c will equal -1/2.

However, the Abel and Cesaro sums of Σ1 are both infinity.

You cannot operate with highly divergent infinite series using the rules of convergent series: the results will be spurious.

Certain divergent series, like asymptotic series, can added/substracted, but under very strict rules.


Also, when using analytic continuation, you are actually substracting infinity from infinity to get something finite: again, an abstract mathematical operation with no connection to the real world.


There is no such thing as bosonic string theory in multiple dimensions, or the derivation of Casimir effect assuming zeta regularization:

https://web.archive.org/web/20120128042636/http://www.scientificexploration.org/journal/jse_09_4_phillips.pdf
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Ayowindip on January 19, 2016, 12:22:33 AM
Whoa. I expected multiple and non-stop discussions about how flat the earth is. But I found something better. That feeling of home. I really do feel as though I can really relate to this society. After all these years... I am home!!!
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: Charming Anarchist on January 19, 2016, 04:57:59 AM
For example, the infinite series "1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5... " can be evaluated. However, the result is disturbingly counter-intuitive.
It seems flawed too. 

Right from the get-go, that Grundi series sounds like MyThButhterth-style rhetorical hypnotizm to confuse the masses.  The Grundi series calculation assumes that you stop the series at some point.  You can not do that.  You are looking at the concept of infinity backwards. 






Infinity exists.  Notice the symbol for infinity is the same as the trajectory of the sun. 

Notice how the number 8 is an infinity sign which accurately depicts the path of the sun going up and down as well as wide and small. 

Notice how the 8th step of a musical scale takes you back to the fundamental leading the scale to infinity. 





I reckon life for mankind would be a lot more peaceful if we adopted a base-8 numbering system. 
Title: Re: Infinity
Post by: ﮎingulaЯiτy on August 10, 2017, 02:09:42 AM
Apologies for the bump. I updated the equivalent thread on the other FES site, and realized I should do the same thing here.

I have to recommend this 3Blue1Brown video which does a good job explaining analytic continuation (AC). It cuts through a lot of the mysticism that other explanations seem to encourage by glossing over details. AC essentially sidesteps our previous inability to deal with undefined infinities and more extrapolate the true behavior of functions regardless without caring whether or not they invoke infinity. Step by step, we can construct an intuitive visual explanation for the problem and how AC approaches it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD0NjbwqlYw

Personally, the visual explanation of AC seems analogous to a function where there is a hole in a straight line.

Consider the function: f(x) = 5x/x (https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q=y+%3D+5x%2Fx&oq=y+%3D+5x%2Fx&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i71k1l4.1836380.1836380.0.1836507.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..1.0.0.ett3UoJ0VAI)
That function's output is obviously a line, and it consistently returns f(x) = 5, with the exception of x = 0 where we get a "0/0" undefined error.

If we somehow didn't know how to pull common factors out of a numerator and denominator and change the function to be f(x) = 5, we could still look at the graph and see what the answer clearly would be 5 when x is 0, despite a calculator's inability to evaluate clashing infinities.

You cannot operate with highly divergent infinite series using the rules of convergent series: the results will be spurious.

Also, when using analytic continuation, you are actually substracting infinity from infinity to get something finite: again, an abstract mathematical operation with no connection to the real world.

I don't see how analytic continuation invokes conflicting infinities. The original problem does, but AC should dodge that problem, just like factoring my super simple example function doesn't actually divide 0 by 0. Let me know if you still perceive this as a problem after watching the video.

As for your concern that we could get spurious results, or lack real world applicability, please skip to 6:28 in fappenhosen's video:

http://www.numberphile.com/videos/analytical_continuation1.html

Additionally, I recall posting a minutephysics video explaining how analytic continuation predicted the fine-structure constant (α), which has been continually confirmed over and over as the accuracy of experimentation improved enough to measure more significant digits. I can hunt that video down if it's really important to you.

There is only one solution to the problem, it is the solution nature agrees on, and arguably it is more coherent than saying the solution is "infinity". Infinities don't seem to appear in nature, but they are inherently built into how we model nature. I firmly believe infinity is a degeneracy of our mathematics models.

Food for thought.  :P