Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« on: July 07, 2017, 12:51:09 AM »
I'm not a flat earther, and I think it's safe to say flat earth has some glaring holes.
Perhaps it's biggest, most obvious and well known one is the sun and moon appearing to set.
How do flat earthers get around, or in their case through this?
One way is with refraction.
But simply mentioning the word refraction isn't, or shouldn't be enough.

I'm captivated by the prospect of a flat earth, especially by an infinite plane, and I wish I, or someone could make it work somehow, but I'm not holding my breath, at least not forever.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2017, 01:06:55 AM by Antithecystem »

Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2017, 01:06:08 AM »
Perhaps over long distances, the light from the ground bends/curves forwards/upwards, making the ground appear more elevated than it is, and since the sun is getting further and further away from you, appearing lower and lower in the sky, eventually the light from the ground appears more elevated than the sun, and cancels it out.
Now why this sort of refraction would be happening, or how we can prove it's happening, is another matter.
If it is happening, it could also explain why boats and things appear to sink bottom first.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2017, 03:24:00 AM by Antithecystem »

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Offline Dither

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Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2017, 12:28:02 AM »
I'm captivated by the prospect of a flat earth, especially by an infinite plane,

That's how it started for many of us,

 


A lie will make it around the world before the truth has time to put on its shoes.

Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2017, 01:29:51 PM »
Well, you are right,  on FE it just doesn't work. Furthermore, there is no explanation given and could not be given.

To make this short, there is refraction that causes the sun appear HIGHER than it is. The light always travels the fastest way possible and in air with density gradient growing towards earth surface it bends as well, especially when sun is near horizon. The curve is cycloid as known from physics.

If you get it right, there is no chance that sun will disappear. It is just will never happen. There is no explanation in FET for sun disappearing due to dense air and at the same time very faint stars which are thousands times fainter than sun are still visible right at the horizon. No it doesn't work, sorry.
Flat Earth is one of the following:
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2017, 04:50:08 PM »
You are assuming that the density of space is zero. You are forgetting that we don't have a real space agency to tell us the density of space.

Offline Oami

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Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2017, 05:14:37 PM »
You are assuming that the density of space is zero. You are forgetting that we don't have a real space agency to tell us the density of space.

What are your requirements for a "real space agency", and how could you tell if some agency actually met them?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2017, 05:21:39 PM »
You are assuming that the density of space is zero. You are forgetting that we don't have a real space agency to tell us the density of space.

What are your requirements for a "real space agency", and how could you tell if some agency actually met them?

A simple requirement I have for a space agency is not to build their 6 billion dollar lunar landers with an assortment of junk yard parts held together with tape.

Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2017, 05:40:01 PM »
No bishop, sorry, but there is no effect of density of space. You mean ether right?

There is simply no effect. Explain how can I see now setting Jupiter and it doesn't disappear. Looks like your ether is very selective. :D
Flat Earth is one of the following:
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Offline Oami

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Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2017, 09:13:52 PM »
A simple requirement I have for a space agency is not to build their 6 billion dollar lunar landers with an assortment of junk yard parts held together with tape.

Ok. Well, we have ESA. It has never landed on the moon at all.

Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2017, 10:03:12 PM »
Well, there is also RocketLab in NZ which is focused on very small satellites (shoe box - sized) which they put on the orbit for a few $M. Each medium company can afford that. So, Bishop?
Flat Earth is one of the following:
- nonsense
- bullshit
- garbage
- trash
- junk
- crap

Choose to your liking.

Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2017, 03:56:17 AM »
I'm captivated by the prospect of a flat earth, especially by an infinite plane,

That's how it started for many of us,
So how do you account for sunsets?

I've been at this for a while now actually.
Well, a year and a half anyway.
I have 700 posts on the other flat earth forum under the name: Antithecyst.

I think flat earthers have made a good case for some things, and while they've failed to convince me, I admire their creativity, their imagination, and most of all, their cajones.
Ironically you gotta have some pretty big balls to believe in flat earth nowadays.

To hell with what the scientific dogmatists say, I say be your scientist, DIY.
Lamestream science's state monopoly on education, medicine, space and so much more needs to be dismantled.
It's authoritarian science is what it is.
So much of reality is open to interpretation, science is as much an art form as it is objective.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 04:03:53 AM by Antithecystem »

Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2017, 04:07:26 AM »
Well, you are right,  on FE it just doesn't work. Furthermore, there is no explanation given and could not be given.

To make this short, there is refraction that causes the sun appear HIGHER than it is. The light always travels the fastest way possible and in air with density gradient growing towards earth surface it bends as well, especially when sun is near horizon. The curve is cycloid as known from physics.

If you get it right, there is no chance that sun will disappear. It is just will never happen. There is no explanation in FET for sun disappearing due to dense air and at the same time very faint stars which are thousands times fainter than sun are still visible right at the horizon. No it doesn't work, sorry.
Maybe refraction is causing the ground to appear higher than it is, blocking the sun from view.

Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2017, 04:11:49 AM »
No bishop, sorry, but there is no effect of density of space. You mean ether right?

There is simply no effect. Explain how can I see now setting Jupiter and it doesn't disappear. Looks like your ether is very selective. :D
Maybe his aether is sparse enough that you can see jupiter, but dense enough that jupiter would appear brighter without it, or: just because it's not white, doesn't mean it's black.
Maybe Jupiter isn't as far away as MS science purports, so there isn't a whole lot of aether for Jupiter's light to travel to on its way to earth.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 05:17:53 AM by Antithecystem »

Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2017, 11:51:06 AM »
Antithecystem,
Quote
Maybe refraction is causing the ground to appear higher than it is, blocking the sun from view.
Why ground appears higher and Sun is not? Selective refraction? We are talking about situations when Sun is "touching" the horizon. No, it doesn't make sense.

Quote
Maybe his aether is sparse enough that you can see Jupiter but dense enough that Jupiter would appear brighter without it, or: just because it's not white, doesn't mean it's black.
Maybe Jupiter isn't as far away as MS science purports, so there isn't a whole lot of aether for Jupiter's light to travel to on its way to earth.
Look, first, there is no evidence for aether. But let's imagine that for some insane reason it does exist. Then, we know that Jupiter is farther than Moon and Sun. Because Moon and Sun obscure them. We also know that Jupiter is MUCH MCUH fainter than Moon and of course thousands of times fainter than Sun. Nonetheless, it "disappears" at an exact same place as Sun does.

This simply contradicts evidence and logic.

And I cannot share your optimism about FET. I think it harms humanity. I can talk about it in a separate thread though.
Flat Earth is one of the following:
- nonsense
- bullshit
- garbage
- trash
- junk
- crap

Choose to your liking.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2017, 01:47:56 PM »
Perhaps over long distances, the light from the ground bends/curves forwards/upwards
Yes, this is one of the leading theories in the FE circle.

How, exactly, did you conclude that FET has glaring holes if you're unaware of its very basics?
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

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Offline markjo

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Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2017, 04:28:50 PM »
You are assuming that the density of space is zero. You are forgetting that we don't have a real space agency to tell us the density of space.

What are your requirements for a "real space agency", and how could you tell if some agency actually met them?

A simple requirement I have for a space agency is not to build their 6 billion dollar lunar landers with an assortment of junk yard parts held together with tape.
Just as an FYI, a space agency did not build the lunar module.  An aircraft company did.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2017, 01:05:10 AM »
Well, there is also RocketLab in NZ which is focused on very small satellites (shoe box - sized) which they put on the orbit for a few $M. Each medium company can afford that. So, Bishop?

Rocketlab was receiving money from the NASA long before their first rocket launch. NASA exists almost in whole as an array of public-private companies known as government contractors. Rocketlab's founder, Peter Beck claims to have experience in international space projects and lists himself as a "friend of NASA" on his Linkedin profile.


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2017, 01:09:07 AM »
Just as an FYI, a space agency did not build the lunar module.  An aircraft company did.

Just an FYI, NASA is composed of public-private companies known as government contractors; temp agencies which provide people to work under NASA management. Northrop Grumman is one such contractor which provides the government with temps. Aside from the higher management and security personnel, no one actually works for NASA. That's why Boeing may claim to have helped build some satellite thing, or why Computer Science Corporation may claim to have worked on some moon thing.

Set foot into ANY US Government research base and this is just how it is.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 01:10:38 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2017, 03:33:36 AM »
Lets look up what this "Bethpage facility" actually is:

http://www.northropgrumman.com/AboutUs/OurHeritage/Pages/Inspace.aspx

Quote
At its Bethpage, N.Y. facility, Grumman Corporation, now part of the Northrop Grumman Aerospace Systems, designed, assembled, integrated and tested the Lunar Module (better known as the LM), the famed Eagle of the Apollo program.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naval_Weapons_Industrial_Reserve_Plant,_Bethpage

Quote
Naval Weapons Industrial Reserve Plant, Bethpage (NWIRP) also known as 'Northrop Grumman Site Facility' was a government-owned, contractor-operated (GOCO) facility established in 1941, with the mission to design, fabricate, and test prototype aircraft for the US Navy and the NASA in the town of Oyster Bay in Bethpage, New York.[1]

Definition of GOCO from a government pdf:

https://info.ornl.gov/sites/wfo/Shared%20Documents/Fact%20Sheets%20for%20Sponsors/Fact_Sheet_DOEWFO_Comparison_of_GOCOandMOContractors.pdf

Quote
GOCO2: (Government-Owned, Contractor Operated) facility is a manufacturing plant that is owned by the Government and operated under contract by a
non-government, private firm. Operation and maintenance of facilities when done by contract with the private sector.

Translation: Northroop Grumann is executing a government contract on a government facility. The contract explicitly spells out what tasks they need to perform and how to do so. Being under a government contract, the government is directly telling the firm what to do. The firm is not autonomous or independent in its decision making, and its employees must get any necessary government security clearance levels like anyone else. Undoubtedly, there are government managers on that site actively managing the contract. Being a naval aircraft/weapons facility, the whole facility is surrounded by armed guards or military personnel employed by the U.S. Government.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2017, 03:51:57 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Rescuing flat earth with Refraction
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2017, 02:21:04 AM »
Antithecystem,
Quote
Maybe refraction is causing the ground to appear higher than it is, blocking the sun from view.
Why ground appears higher and Sun is not? Selective refraction? We are talking about situations when Sun is "touching" the horizon. No, it doesn't make sense.

Quote
Maybe his aether is sparse enough that you can see Jupiter but dense enough that Jupiter would appear brighter without it, or: just because it's not white, doesn't mean it's black.
Maybe Jupiter isn't as far away as MS science purports, so there isn't a whole lot of aether for Jupiter's light to travel to on its way to earth.
Look, first, there is no evidence for aether. But let's imagine that for some insane reason it does exist. Then, we know that Jupiter is farther than Moon and Sun. Because Moon and Sun obscure them. We also know that Jupiter is MUCH MCUH fainter than Moon and of course thousands of times fainter than Sun. Nonetheless, it "disappears" at an exact same place as Sun does.

This simply contradicts evidence and logic.

And I cannot share your optimism about FET. I think it harms humanity. I can talk about it in a separate thread though.
Maybe direct (hasn't bounced off other objects on the way to your eyes) sunlight is stronger than indirect (has bounced off other objects on the way to your eyes) sunlight, and that's why refraction is affecting the latter more than the former.

Yea but the point is being able to see Jupiter, is not proof the aether doesn't exist.