Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #180 on: April 21, 2017, 01:45:01 AM »
I am not saying that you changed the tilt of the rake as you panned to the sun. I am saying that once you get the bottom end aligned with the crescent, there is another dimension of movement where you can tilt it until it appears aligned with the sun from some point. You could easily point your rake a little more vertical and have it still aligned with the crescent, yet pointing off into space. There is no real verification on exactly which angle is the correct angle.

That is not correct. Once the perpendicular portion of the rake is lined up with the line of light and dark on the moon and the center of the rake handle bisects the center of the moon, then the only angle that can vary is how far away from me the other end of the rake is, but that would not change the fact that it points directly at the sun. All it would change is the apparent length of the stick from my point of view.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 02:44:03 AM by Nirmala »

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #181 on: April 21, 2017, 02:18:47 AM »
Well, in this thread we have shown that anyone, with minimal effort and a basic understanding of perspective, can see first-hand that the moon really is lined up with the sun using a piece of string,rake handle, or any manner of straight hand-held objects.  Or see the exact same "but it doesn't seem lined up" effect using a building's roofline, railroad tracks, hallway, living room ceiling, or other straight line.

I guess that about covers it.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #182 on: April 21, 2017, 02:27:39 AM »
We've also learned where Mr Zetetic Extraordinaire Tom Bishop gets his education.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 02:32:11 AM by Flatout »

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #183 on: April 21, 2017, 03:17:10 AM »
I am not saying that you changed the tilt of the rake as you panned to the sun. I am saying that once you get the bottom end aligned with the crescent, there is another dimension of movement where you can tilt it until it appears aligned with the sun from some point. You could easily point your rake a little more vertical and have it still aligned with the crescent, yet pointing off into space. There is no real verification on exactly which angle is the correct angle.

That is not correct. Once the perpendicular portion of the rake is lined up with the line of light and dark on the moon and the center of the rake handle bisects the center of the moon, then the only angle that can vary is how far away from me the other end of the rake is, but that would not change the fact that it points directly at the sun. All it would change is the apparent length of the stick from my point of view.

I just tested this sitting here at my desk. I held my forearm up with the elbow at a particular height, which is equivalent to the handle of the rake held at the exact height that bisects the moon. Then I found a particular angle for my arm in relation to the floor, which is the equivalent of the handle being perpendicular to the line of light and dark on the moon, only in this case it locks in an angle between my arm and the floor. Then if I hold my elbow at the preset height, and maintain the angle of my arm in relation to the floor, the only thing I can do is move the tip of my fingers towards or away from my eyes. When I move them away, my arm appears shorter, but my fingers continue to point at the same spot on the wall behind my arm, which happened to be a corner of the window. This is equivalent to the rake handle pointing at the sun. If I maintain the position of my elbow and the angle of my arm, but bring my fingers closer to my eyes, then my forearm appears longer so that it now bisects the corner of the window. So how close the tips of my fingers appear to be to the corner of the window changes (i.e. the apparent length of my arm from fixed elbow to moving fingertips), but the arm is always either pointing at that corner or bisecting that corner. So the straight line between my fixed elbow and the corner of the window does not change even if I rotate my arm in the remaining third dimension.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #184 on: April 21, 2017, 04:08:50 AM »
We've also learned where Mr Zetetic Extraordinaire Tom Bishop gets his education.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #185 on: April 21, 2017, 11:22:05 AM »

Junker! Seeing as you are here on patrol, have you tried this string thing? Indeed have any of the FE fraternity prised themselves from their basements to do a simple bit of real world experimentation, I don’t want to push Tom anymore as there is obviously something or someone that is preventing him from going out.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #186 on: April 21, 2017, 01:11:17 PM »

Junker! Seeing as you are here on patrol, have you tried this string thing? Indeed have any of the FE fraternity prised themselves from their basements to do a simple bit of real world experimentation, I don’t want to push Tom anymore as there is obviously something or someone that is preventing him from going out.

Why would Junker want to perform this invalid "string thing" experiment?



Have you tried it for yourself yet?

Why would I need to? I was considering trying it, until we talked about it more and you guys clearly demonstrated how utterly invalid and useless it is.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #187 on: April 21, 2017, 01:24:41 PM »
Obviously better than drawing an imaginary line, like the OP.  Your illogic is astonishing Senor Bishop.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #188 on: April 21, 2017, 01:53:06 PM »
Obviously better than drawing an imaginary line, like the OP.  Your illogic is astonishing Senor Bishop.

The illustration gives a better view of the experiment. Nirmala did the experiment for us on video, and I didn't accuse him of deception. I have no problem with the video showing what it shows. Why replicate again? How many videos of the same thing do we need?

The illustration I provided is a pungent point that the experiment is ultimately an invalid test of the moon's direction.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #189 on: April 21, 2017, 02:16:22 PM »
Obviously better than drawing an imaginary line, like the OP.  Your illogic is astonishing Senor Bishop.

The illustration gives a better view of the experiment. Nirmala did the experiment for us on video, and I didn't accuse him of deception. I have no problem with the video showing what it shows. Why replicate again? How many videos of the same thing do we need?

The illustration I provided is a pungent point that the experiment is ultimately an invalid test of the moon's direction.

Your illustration is a stick drawing of worse quality than my 5 year-old son's; it demonstrates only your inability to critically evaluate anything that disagrees with you, and not a shred more.  Since it does not accurately reflect what happened in the video, drawing quality aside, I am not sure how you can make this argument with a straight face.
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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #190 on: April 21, 2017, 02:21:08 PM »

I concur, both as art and as an illustration of your understanding, it’s another failure I’m afraid, hopefully a member of the FE crew will attempt this in the true spirit of free thinking discovery, that this place is supposed to represent.
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #191 on: April 21, 2017, 02:32:33 PM »

I concur, both as art and as an illustration of your understanding, it’s another failure I’m afraid, hopefully a member of the FE crew will attempt this in the true spirit of free thinking discovery, that this place is supposed to represent.

The test was critically evaluated and you have yet to explain how we can do this "string thing" experiment without repeating the flaw as illustrated.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #192 on: April 21, 2017, 02:35:48 PM »

I concur, both as art and as an illustration of your understanding, it’s another failure I’m afraid, hopefully a member of the FE crew will attempt this in the true spirit of free thinking discovery, that this place is supposed to represent.

The test was critically evaluated and you have yet to explain how we can do this "string thing" experiment without repeating the flaw as illustrated.

The flaw of having too flexible a back?  Nirmala already explained the problem of the position of the measuring stick in a 3D space.  Maybe you should read it again?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #193 on: April 21, 2017, 02:45:31 PM »

I concur, both as art and as an illustration of your understanding, it’s another failure I’m afraid, hopefully a member of the FE crew will attempt this in the true spirit of free thinking discovery, that this place is supposed to represent.

The test was critically evaluated and you have yet to explain how we can do this "string thing" experiment without repeating the flaw as illustrated.

The flaw of having too flexible a back?  Nirmala already explained the problem of the position of the measuring stick in a 3D space.  Maybe you should read it again?

The illustration can easily be redrawn with him standing straight up and holding the string above his head. What a transparent and pathetic rebuttal. Limbo has nothing to do with it.

Everyone can see what the problem is here with this "string thing" experiment. The directions are to take a string, align with the direction of the moon's crescent, and connect it from the moon to the sun. This would result in what I have illustrated. You have provided nothing compelling to ensure that the string is pointing in exactly the same angle as the moon. I must assume that you have been outsmarted.

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #194 on: April 21, 2017, 02:50:25 PM »
The illustration can easily be redrawn with him standing straight up and holding the string above his head.

Then why did you produce such a juvenile diagram?

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What a transparent and pathetic rebuttal. Limbo has nothing to do with it.

It just goes to how terrible your diagram, that you claim explains everything, actually is.  Perhaps you should put in a little more effort?

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Everyone can see what the problem is here with this "string thing" experiment.

Bold claim.  Evidence?  Or are you pretending you are "everyone"?

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The directions are to take a string, align with the crescent, and connect it from the moon to the sun. This would result in what I have illustrated.

Your thought experiment is inferior to actually doing the experiment.  This is your own standard, so start living up to it.

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You have provided nothing compelling to ensure that the string is pointing in exactly the same direction as the moon's phase. I must only assume that you have been outsmarted.

Just do it yourself.  You have wasted more time protesting the experiment than it would take to do it.  If you are correct, it should be trivial to demonstrate.  Everyone has a camera in their pocket after all  ;)
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #195 on: April 21, 2017, 02:51:33 PM »
I have no problem with the video provided. Why do I need to do it again?

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #196 on: April 21, 2017, 02:55:50 PM »



I concur, both as art and as an illustration of your understanding, it’s another failure I’m afraid, hopefully a member of the FE crew will attempt this in the true spirit of free thinking discovery, that this place is supposed to represent.

The test was critically evaluated and you have yet to explain how we can do this "string thing" experiment without repeating the flaw as illustrated.

Tom the only thing you have successfully illustrated is your lack of comprehension, compounded by your refusal to check your flawed reasoning with a simple test. When considering the beliefs of your hero on direct evidence over just speculating is inexplicable.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 02:57:25 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #197 on: April 21, 2017, 03:09:28 PM »
Tom the only thing you have successfully illustrated is your lack of comprehension, compounded by your refusal to check your flawed reasoning with a simple test. When considering the beliefs of your hero on direct evidence over just speculating is inexplicable.

There is no way for the "string thing" experiment, as described, to rule out the possibility illustrated. Why should I perform a flawed test?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2017, 03:11:16 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #198 on: April 21, 2017, 03:09:52 PM »

Junker! Seeing as you are here on patrol, have you tried this string thing? Indeed have any of the FE fraternity prised themselves from their basements to do a simple bit of real world experimentation, I don’t want to push Tom anymore as there is obviously something or someone that is preventing him from going out.

I haven't tried it. I'm not opposed to trying it, but I'm not overly sure what we are trying to accomplish in this thread. Can I get a tl;dr version so I don't have to read 10 pages of arguing?
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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #199 on: April 21, 2017, 03:20:12 PM »
TL;dr

Be it resolved that a line drawn on the 2D projection of the sky, perpindicular from the chord of the lunar terminator intersects with the sun. FE has assumed the negative side.
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