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Offline Tom Bishop

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Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« on: April 04, 2017, 02:14:32 PM »
I came across a youtube video which asks some interesting questions about the angles of the sun and moon.


Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2017, 04:46:48 PM »
Simple explanation: the sun is 93 million miles away. If you draw a line to the sun's apparent position in the sky, yes it would seem that the moon is not properly lighted. But if you create a scale model showing the actual proportional distances from the sun to the earth and to the moon, it actually would be wrong if the lighted area on the moon was not angled towards the actual location of the sun at 93 million miles away.

This is similar to the argument that the sunburst rays coming through the clouds seem to show that the sun is closer than it is. But that is simply because the sun's rays always converge on the sun's location in the sky. The rays would appear the same whether the sun was 3000 miles away or 93 million miles away. You need a measurement from another angle to determine the actual distance which is why astronomers use the location of a more distant planet (usually Venus) to triangulate and thereby calculate the actual distance to the sun. When you view the sun's rays from above, they look parrallel: http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/65112/383292874/stock-photo-sun-rays-on-the-sky-with-clouds-plane-view-above-the-earth-can-be-used-for-background-383292874.jpg

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2017, 07:40:12 PM »
That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't the angles line up? They would line up in a small scale model of the sun and moon and observer, so why not a larger scale model with the sun 93 million miles away?


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2017, 04:16:47 AM »
Is anyone else going to attempt to defend the heliocentric model?

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2017, 07:29:22 AM »
That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't the angles line up? They would line up in a small scale model of the sun and moon and observer, so why not a larger scale model with the sun 93 million miles away?
Fair enough, then prove that they would line up in a small scale model then. And remember that considering a standard issue office globus, the distance to the moon object is about 10 meters.

Nobody needs to "defend" the heliocentric model any further than the reply you actually got already. You disregard the reply because it doesn't conform to your wishful thinking. If you want to be taken serious, Tom, you need to start presenting some actual evidence. Just like us "round earthers", even the flat earth movement must be sick and tired of you making them look like blatant idiots by now.
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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2017, 07:31:41 AM »
And while you're at it, Tom, please respond to the 3 videos I linked you in the Shaq thread. I know you saw them, and I know you can't refute them. If you can't, just say it. Don't go silent.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2017, 01:24:26 PM »
That doesn't make any sense. Why wouldn't the angles line up? They would line up in a small scale model of the sun and moon and observer, so why not a larger scale model with the sun 93 million miles away?
Fair enough, then prove that they would line up in a small scale model then. And remember that considering a standard issue office globus, the distance to the moon object is about 10 meters.

Nobody needs to "defend" the heliocentric model any further than the reply you actually got already. You disregard the reply because it doesn't conform to your wishful thinking. If you want to be taken serious, Tom, you need to start presenting some actual evidence. Just like us "round earthers", even the flat earth movement must be sick and tired of you making them look like blatant idiots by now.

The reply I got merely said that they shouldn't expect to be lined up because the sun is 93 million miles away. ??? ???

We are going to need a better explanation than that.

And while you're at it, Tom, please respond to the 3 videos I linked you in the Shaq thread. I know you saw them, and I know you can't refute them. If you can't, just say it. Don't go silent.

You want me to go off-topic in this thread by talking about an off-topic post you made in another thread? I don't think so. Your videos were ignored in the Shaq thread for a reason. Please stay on topic.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2017, 01:39:05 PM »
Remember that the next time you get a reply that actually answers your question. If you cannot take in the relation between distance and perspective as outlined in Nirmala's reply, it makes perfect sense why you still believe the earth is flat and resort to ignorance and ignoring actual, fact based answers that doesn't support your wishful thinking.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2017, 01:55:16 PM »
Remember that the next time you get a reply that actually answers your question. If you cannot take in the relation between distance and perspective as outlined in Nirmala's reply, it makes perfect sense why you still believe the earth is flat and resort to ignorance and ignoring actual, fact based answers that doesn't support your wishful thinking.

Does geometry stop working when things are 93 million miles away?

http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2011/06/todd-lockwood-curvilinear-perspective.html

The author of this link is just talking pseudoscience to explain the effect. If there are two balls with arrows on them pointing at each other, and those balls get further and further away in the distance, is there ever a point in Ecludian Geometry where the arrows are not pointing at each other?

Clearly not!

We will need to see something more rigerous of this effect to say otherwise, something more tangible than the ridiculous "oh when you look out at the universe it's like looking through a fisheye lens" that author gives. The explanation is clearly against Ecludian Geometry, and provides no supporting evidence whatsoever.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 02:57:32 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2017, 03:04:17 PM »
Is anyone else going to attempt to defend the heliocentric model?
http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~amyers/MoonPaperOnline.pdf

This purpose of this paper does not even attempt to explain why the effect happens at all. The purpose of this paper is an attempt to derive an equation. From the paper:

Quote
Comparing the observed and expected directions of incoming light at the moon, we derive an equation for the magnitude of the moon tilt illusion that can be applied to all configurations of sun and moon in the sky.


In the paper there is a passing reference that "straight lines become great circles on a celestial sphere":

Quote
The moon tilt illusion is not described in astronomy textbooks because astronomers
know that straight lines in object space become great circles on the celestial sphere.
Minnaert [5] gives only a passing reference: “...the line connecting the horns of the
moon, between its first quarter and full moon, for instance, does not appear to be
at all perpendicular to the direction from sun to moon; we apparently think of this
direction as being a curved line. Fix this direction by stretching a piece of string taut
in front of your eye; however unlikely it may have seemed to you at first you will now
perceive that the condition of perpendicularity is satisfied”.

Celestial sphere?

I'm pretty sure that if we had two balls with arrows pointing at each other, or really just two arrows pointing at each other, they would continue pointing at each other no matter how far away they were from the observer. Open a 3D modeling program and try it. At what point do things become a "celestial sphere" and we are looking through a fish-eye lens?

Apparently they could not explain the effect with any sort of supporting evidence, so they just made something up about the universe looking curved when you look at it. The author even admits that astronomy textbooks avoid talking about the subject altogether. Is it out of shame? The topic of "straight lines look curved in our universe..." seems like a pretty important topic of discussion and deserves a real explanation with real supporting evidence.

Straight lines look curved when they get far away because.... why again? None of the links you have given have answered this at all. They only make offhanded remarks that when we look at the universe it's like we are looking through a fish-eye lens, because of the "celestial sphere"... as if the earth, stars and other objects around you would even matter at all in a simple geometric scene with two bodies and an observer.

Anyone with an IQ above room temperature should be able to see how ridiculous and flimsy this explanation is.

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Offline Jura-Glenlivet

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2017, 07:56:33 PM »
So Tom sees a video, jumps around going “what he said, what he said” and then accuses people of having room temperature IQ's, a bit rich.

You are trying to do geometry (something I'm sure you once argued couldn't be trusted  over long distance as it couldn't be proved) on the flat plane of the observed sky, where two items apparently the same size should have angles that are true, when said objects are not only along way off in a third dimension but one of them is 400 times further away than the other.

But more than that, what does it say about your own personal view of the sky, the angles don't work for your system either, when the angles should be truer as the distances involved are much closer.

If anything this proves that the distances are further than they appear to be, and Tom has jumped on another bandwagon before thinking through the consequences.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2017, 08:06:17 PM by Jura-Glenlivet »
Just to be clear, you are all terrific, but everything you say is exactly what a moron would say.

No one infers a god from the simple, from the known, from what is understood, but from the complex, the unknown, and the incomprehensible. Our ignorance is God; what we know is science. Robert Green Ingersoll

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2017, 11:20:08 PM »
You are trying to do geometry (something I'm sure you once argued couldn't be trusted  over long distance as it couldn't be proved) on the flat plane of the observed sky, where two items apparently the same size should have angles that are true, when said objects are not only along way off in a third dimension but one of them is 400 times further away than the other.

So straight lines aren't straight when long distances are involved?  ???

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2017, 12:56:13 AM »
so i'm trying to do a whole 'be less aggressively sarcastic' thing, and i decided this post wasn't in line with that.  gonna make a few ninja edits and repost.

The author of this link is just talking pseudoscience to explain the effect. If there are two balls with arrows on them pointing at each other, and those balls get further and further away in the distance, is there ever a point in Ecludian Geometry where the arrows are not pointing at each other?

in euclidean space, no.  but if you project those coordinates onto a curvilinear surface, then yes. 

you're correct that in euclidean space, the two arrows will always point at one another.  what you're failing to consider is that the night sky is not a euclidean space; it's a curved surface.  everything we see in the night sky is a projection of 3d objects in 3d space onto a spherical surface.  hence the term 'celestial sphere.'  the night sky appears to us as if we are looking at the interior surface of a sphere.

so, the argument is not 'i dunno everything in the universe is a fish eye lense or whatever.'  the argument is that when you project objects in 3d space onto a 2d surface (like the night sky), euclidean relationships are not preserved.




although it may appear to the observer that the moon does not point in the 'correct' direction (first image), there actually is a straight line path between them (second image).  it's just that this line, when projected onto a curvilinear surface, no longer has a constant slope from the perspective of the observer.

This purpose of this paper does not even attempt to explain why the effect happens at all.

it absolutely does.  read the paper more thoroughly.  you don't need to read all 28 pages, just sections 1-4.  here are the highlights:

Quote
3. How the Observed Slope of a Straight Line Changes

Perspective projection is the basis for human vision.  The moon tilt illusion can be understood and explained by the principles of perspective projection of object space onto a two-dimensional viewing surface.  Before comparing the observed slope of the moon-sun line with its expected slope, it is necessary to consider how the slope of a straight line depends upon the viewer’s orientation.

While  the  slope  of  any  straight  line  in  3-D  space  with  respect  to  any  plane  is constant,  the observed slope  of  the  line  changes  according  to  the  position  of  the observer and his line of sight.
...
4. Cause of Moon Tilt Illusion

With an understanding of how the observed slope of a straight line varies depending upon the direction of the observation, we are in a position to explain the moon tilt illusion.  The same principles of perspective that hold for a straight line in 3-D space apply to the straight sun-moon light ray.  When we view the slope of the light ray at the moon, which is the only place where we can photograph the direction of the light ray, the slope we observe is exactly what one would expect from the principles of perspective projection that form the basis of human vision or photography.  Why,
then, does the observer experience a sense that this direction is wrong when turning his head to look at where the light ray originates?

Quote
...the line connecting the horns of the moon, between its first quarter and full moon, for instance, does not appear to be at all perpendicular to the direction from sun to moon; we apparently think of this direction as being a curved line. Fix this direction by stretching a piece of string taut
in front of your eye; however unlikely it may have seemed to you at first you will now perceive that the condition of perpendicularity is satisfied”.

ironically, this passage tells you how to verify that this explanation is correct.  do the experiment.  take a piece of string and try to make a perpendicular line from the moon to the sun.  you'll find to your surprise that "the condition of perpendicularity is satisfied."  no need to take the word of scientists with room-temperature iqs.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 02:55:04 AM by garygreen »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2017, 03:10:09 AM »
All I can say is to be skeptical and try thinking for your own self for once. Posting a picture of a person with a semi-transparent bigger "celestial sphere" surrounding the earth with celestial bodies painted on it is not reality.

If we paint lines on that celestial sphere we can create some curved lines, since the surface is curved, but just how does that apply to the situation in question? Are the sun and moon in RET painted on a spherical pane of glass surrounding the earth? Ridiculous.

There are only three points of interest here. Arrow1, Arrow2, and the observer. The arrows are pointing at each other and no matter where the observer stands the arrows are still pointing at each other. Pretty basic.

Please do not imagine a universe where there is a celestial sphere of glass around the world with the celestial bodies painted on it and tell us this is reality. Every child of five knows that this is not true even in the Round Earth model!

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2017, 03:17:44 AM »
you don't have to take anyone's word for it.  do the experiment yourself.  it'll cost you only the price of a length of twine.

All I can say is to be skeptical and try thinking for your own self for once

lol so you ask for replies, and then insult my intelligence for doing so?  twice?  i can think for myself fine, i've just come to a different conclusion than you have.

Posting a picture of a person with a semi-transparent bigger "celestial sphere" surrounding the earth with celestial bodies painted on it is not reality.

If we paint lines on that celestial sphere we can create some curved lines, since the surface is curved, but just how does that apply to the situation in question? Are the sun and moon in RET painted on a spherical pane of glass surrounding the earth? Ridiculous.

There are only three points of interest here. Arrow1, Arrow2, and the observer. The arrows are pointing at each other and no matter where the observer stands the arrows are still pointing at each other. Pretty basic.

Please do not imagine a universe where there is a celestial sphere of glass around the world and the stars and all celestial bodies are painted on it. Every child of five knows that is not true even in the Round Earth model!

i can't respond to "you're obviously wrong."  you'll have to be more specific.  and you're taking the celestial sphere thing too literally.

what about the night sky appears three-dimensional to you?  why do you think of the night sky as a 3d euclidean space?  yes, i agree that the space between us and the sun/moon is a 3d euclidean space.  but is that how it appears to you when you look at it?  do you see depth in the night sky?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2017, 03:32:13 AM »
In your previous post you said "what you're failing to consider is that the night sky is not a euclidean space; it's a curved surface." Just what are you talking about? In RET the sky isn't a "curved surface". It's not a surface at all. What reason is there to think that we would see it as a surface around us? None.

What you have posted is a desperate attempt to claim that euclidean geometry doesn't apply to the universe.

Don't you see how insane that is to arbitrarily declare that the celestial bodies are painted on some kind of surface? In your second post you claim that this is just how it appears to us. But why? Because astronomers need geometry to be completely different to explain how this could work? I see no reason, none at all, for why the bodies should appear to us as if they were painted on a surface. This claim is a complete astronomical fantasy.

Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2017, 03:33:23 AM »
Simple to actually do the geometry. Watching the video, it is pretty clear that the moon is in its first quarter and the sun is getting low in the sky. Using the animation presented here: https://www.khanacademy.org/partner-content/nasa/measuringuniverse/spacemath1/p/animate-phases-of-the-moon you can get a relative position of the sun, moon and observer on the earth, as pictured below (not to scale). Note that the red dot is the observer who is on the surface of the earth and about to rotate out of the sunlight and into the dark night. If you were standing where the red dot is located, the moon would be overhead and the sun would be nearing the horizon in the west, just as the video showed.

Now get a very long roll of paper, and recreate the modeled positions of the earth, moon and sun as shown below, only this time draw them all to scale. So let's say you draw the earth as 1/2 inch diameter circle. Then the moon would be a circle about 1/16th of an inch in diameter and it would be located about 15 inches below the earth on the roll of paper.

Now to draw the sun on the paper to scale, you would need to unroll the paper so that you can draw a 4 and 1/2 foot circle or at least the partial circumference of that circle 484 feet away from both the earth and sun. Now draw the lighted and dark areas onto the earth and moon. so that the dark areas are opposite the sun that is 484 feet away on your unrolled piece of paper. You will see that the dark areas are in the exact positions as shown on the not to scale model depicted below, which also just happen to  match what the maker of that video observed: the dark area of the moon was facing to the east and the moon was pretty much overhead, while the sun was low in the sky to the west and about to set.

It naturally is hard to visualize such extreme distances, but this is actually simple geometry. It is just extreme in the sense that two sides of the triangle between the sun, earth and moon are both about 93,000,000 miles long.  The sun is low in the sky because the earth is rotating away from it, but the moon is up there high in the sky with the sunlight that is striking it from the west....but from a very great distance.

Here is a fun attempt to demonstrate the scale of our solar system in a way that we can start to comprehend the extreme distances involved, compared to the scale of distances we normally encounter on earth: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2015/09/18/this-scale-model-of-the-solar-system-is-truly-mind-boggling/?utm_term=.e00985163f99

And here is the NOT to scale model of the earth, sun, moon and observer (red dot) as they would have been located in the video:

« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 04:04:28 AM by Nirmala »

Offline model 29

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2017, 04:01:48 AM »
Is anyone else going to attempt to defend the heliocentric model?
Too easy. 

Here's an experiment anyone (including you Tom) can do.  Next time the moon is in a crescent phase and the sun is up with clear skies, hold a small ball out at arm's length toward the moon.  You'll see the same phase on the ball (also lining up with the moon's phase), and now turn you head toward the sun.  The same effect occurs with the ball. 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Moon and Sun Angles Don't Line Up
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2017, 04:04:27 AM »
Nirmala,

I read your message but, I am sorry, I don't really understand what you are trying to say at all, except that the large distances involved somehow make angles not work.

You are going to have to be a little more clear in why angles don't work on big scales.

model 29,

Why should we assume that the results of that experiment would be how you wish them to be?