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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2016, 01:21:43 PM »
No, it just means I wasn't aware of it.
Are you seriously saying you weren't aware of the "omg trump = literally hitler" crowd?
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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #21 on: August 10, 2016, 01:24:32 PM »
No, it just means I wasn't aware of it.
Are you seriously saying you weren't aware of the "omg trump = literally hitler" crowd?

I wasn't aware of it specifically, no. In retrospect, I am not surprised, in fact it gives me ease to know that people are consistent.


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Offline Rushy

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2016, 01:31:43 PM »
Rushy, I know you're a staunch Trump supporter.  Do you agree with him that somebody should assassinate Hillary?

???

Trump didn't say someone should assassinate Hillary.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2016, 01:43:23 PM »
I wasn't aware of it specifically, no.
Fair enough. I guess it surprises me since my social media bubble (largely dominated by left-leaning white people) is full of this stuff. Some of it is just people calling Trump Hitler for shits and gigs, but then some of it insists on drawing parallels between the current situation in the world and the run-up to World War II.
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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2016, 02:23:45 PM »
equating the legal nomination of a supreme court justice by a democratically elected president, as per the directive of the constitution itself, and the nominee's subsequent confirmation by a democratically elected senate, to "the removal of basic human rights," is utter nonsense.

that you attached it to a thinly-veiled threat against "anyone who agrees with her" is totally fucked up.  that's how terrorists and fascists deal with shit.

The Constitution, Supreme Court, etc. is not where my rights come from. It really doesn't matter what they say in the grand scheme of reality.

oh ok.  so you support the use of violence against democratic, legal, and constitutional actions that do not conform to your particular conception of what your rights are and how those documents should be interpreted; and, as you said, against anyone who agrees with them.  that's what terrorists do. 

"If she starts genuinely trying to support the removal of the second amendment or other people who want to remove it, she's going to regret it and so will everyone that agrees with her."

that's fucking terrorism.  you're literally threatening to do violence to me if i support a candidate who tries to support a nominee who doesn't agree with your interpretation of the second amendment.  whoops, sorry, i apparently only have to agree with her to make it on the "you're going to regret it" list.

fuck you.

>Trump suggests that 2nd amendment supporters could decide the election

why would it be a "horrible day" if second amendment supporters decided the election?  and which election is taking place after the supreme court nomination, for which there is "nothing you can do," that second amendment supports could affect?
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Offline Blanko

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2016, 02:36:27 PM »
why would it be a "horrible day" if second amendment supporters decided the election?  and which election is taking place after the supreme court nomination, for which there is "nothing you can do," that second amendment supports could affect?

It wouldn't be, and there is no election.

Can you clarify your line of questioning, please? I seriously don't understand what you're trying to get at.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #26 on: August 10, 2016, 02:45:24 PM »
It wouldn't be
Trump himself said it would be - I presume that's what garygreen is asking about.

Quote from: The Donald
So here, I just wrote this down today. Hillary wants to raise taxes -- it's a comparison. I want to lower them. Hillary wants to expand regulations, which she does bigly. Can you believe that? I will reduce them very, very substantially, could be as much as 70 to 75 percent. Hillary wants to shut down energy production. I want to expand it. Lower electric bills, folks! Hillary wants to abolish, essentially abolish, the Second Amendment. By the way, and if she gets to pick --if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know. But I'll tell you what, that will be a horrible day, if -- if -- Hillary gets to put her judges in.
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Offline Blanko

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2016, 02:54:41 PM »
He specifically mentions that it would be a horrible day if Hillary gets to put her judges in, which wouldn't happen if she didn't get elected. Likewise, if you choose to believe Trump is implying she might get assassinated, the same holds true: it will only be a "horrible day" if the second amendment people don't get involved at all. So what relevancy do they bear in this scenario?

Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2016, 03:09:29 PM »
in retrospect i agree the horrible day is in reference to hillary's potential sc nominee, but in the other bit i don't see how he could possibly be talking about second amendment supporters as a voting block.

"...if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know."

if there's "nothing you can do" after she picks her judges, then i don't understand how he could be talking about voting blocks.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2016, 03:19:45 PM »
>Trump suggests that 2nd amendment supporters could decide the election
>every liberal immediately thinks of assassination

Have we reached Poe's law yet?

It seems like much less of a stretch than saying that comparing Trump to Hitler is equivalent to calling for his assassination, yet that is what Trump supporters were saying just a short time ago. ..has Scott Adams released any statements about how dangerous the world will be with Trump as president?
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Offline Blanko

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #30 on: August 10, 2016, 03:20:03 PM »
in retrospect i agree the horrible day is in reference to hillary's potential sc nominee, but in the other bit i don't see how he could possibly be talking about second amendment supporters as a voting block.

"...if she gets to pick her judges, nothing you can do, folks. Although the Second Amendment people, maybe there is, I don't know."

if there's "nothing you can do" after she picks her judges, then i don't understand how he could be talking about voting blocks.

Doesn't say that it would be after she picks her judges, but fair enough - maybe it's more likely he's talking about the collective lobbying power of second amendment supporters dissuading her, but I still find the notion that he's talking about assassination absolutely ludicrous. It seems to me like a complete fabrication by the left to paint all gun owners as potential murderers.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #31 on: August 10, 2016, 03:56:51 PM »
Trump explains it as the 2nd amendment people are very motivated.
And they are.  Take their guns, they will kill you.


But Trump has to craft his message around buzz words that evoke specific emotions in his base.

Saying "Hillary Clinton wants to errode gun rights to make it very difficult to obtain guns.  But those who support the 2nd amendment are strong and proud and I believe have the political force to stop her." Is too many words, too complex, and not angry enough.
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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2016, 03:57:12 PM »
Doesn't say that it would be after she picks her judges, but fair enough - maybe it's more likely he's talking about the collective lobbying power of second amendment supporters dissuading her, but I still find the notion that he's talking about assassination absolutely ludicrous. It seems to me like a complete fabrication by the left to paint all gun owners as potential murderers.

That is you reading in to things unless you have seen something I haven't. Every news report I have seen is about what a boor Trump is, not what the Gun Right's Supporters would do in such an instance.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2016, 04:00:26 PM »
I don't think it's that well thought-through. It's the kind of off-the-cuff remark - a joke -  which, if said in the bar, wouldn't raise an eyebrow, but when you're making speeches in front of millions, thousands of whom are very angry and armed, that kind of flippancy could be dangerous. It's further evidence that this man doesn't have the subtlety necessary to hold the office of president.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #34 on: August 10, 2016, 04:03:09 PM »
Doesn't say that it would be after she picks her judges, but fair enough - maybe it's more likely he's talking about the collective lobbying power of second amendment supporters dissuading her, but I still find the notion that he's talking about assassination absolutely ludicrous. It seems to me like a complete fabrication by the left to paint all gun owners as potential murderers.

That is you reading in to things unless you have seen something I haven't. Every news report I have seen is about what a boor Trump is, not what the Gun Right's Supporters would do in such an instance.

Of course they don't say it directly, but they do want to create the mental association "gun owner = potential assassin" in the reader. Trump never said anything about assassination, so the idea that these "second amendment people" could possibly assassinate Hillary must have come from the reporters themselves.

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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2016, 04:09:52 PM »
He didn't say it directly, but it's certainly implied.

As I say, not as a serious suggestion, more like the kind of stupid joke you'd make between mates, but when it's a part of a presidential candidates' speech, it should raise eyebrows about his judgement.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2016, 04:30:01 PM »
oh ok.  so you support the use of violence against democratic, legal, and constitutional actions that do not conform to your particular conception of what your rights are and how those documents should be interpreted; and, as you said, against anyone who agrees with them.  that's what terrorists do. 

"If she starts genuinely trying to support the removal of the second amendment or other people who want to remove it, she's going to regret it and so will everyone that agrees with her."

that's fucking terrorism.  you're literally threatening to do violence to me if i support a candidate who tries to support a nominee who doesn't agree with your interpretation of the second amendment.  whoops, sorry, i apparently only have to agree with her to make it on the "you're going to regret it" list.

fuck you.

You want to take rights from people "legally" and then you get upset they might have a negative reaction.

The difference here is your would rather other people do violence for you. You want the government by tyranny of majority to coerce a large section of the population into giving up basic rights. The very idea that your own actions may result in an unfavorable outcome is somehow disgusting to you. I'm pretty amazed.

Politics aren't a game and I don't treat them like one. The people who continue on this rights-suppressive route are going to receive the backlash for doing so.

Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2016, 05:36:50 PM »
You want to take rights from people "legally" and then you get upset they might have a negative reaction.

The difference here is your would rather other people do violence for you. You want the government by tyranny of majority to coerce a large section of the population into giving up basic rights. The very idea that your own actions may result in an unfavorable outcome is somehow disgusting to you. I'm pretty amazed.

i want the president to be lawful and constitutional.  that means nominating a justice.  it's a rule.  i also want citizens to be lawful and constitutional.  that means not resorting to violence simply because the party you don't like nominated a justice you don't like.

in case you haven't noticed, people disagree about rights.  there is no universally accepted interpretation of either rights in general or constitutional amendments in particular.  all you're fundamentally saying is that if the courts don't agree with your particular interpretation of the quran the constitution, then you're going to make them pay.

again, really can't emphasize this enough: that's how terrorists deal with political differences.  "if i don't get what i'm entitled to politically, then i'm going to hurt you."

Politics aren't a game and I don't treat them like one. The people who continue on this rights-suppressive route are going to receive the backlash for doing so.

rights talk doesn't disgust me.  i love rights.  like the right to agree with anyone i want to, have any opinion i want to, supports any candidate i want to, and value any public policy i want to.  and the right of the president to do what the constitution says presidents are supposed to do, and what senates are supposed to do, and what courts are supposed to do.

i'm not on the side of 'everybody better do things my way or get shot' or whatever other internet tough guy bullshit you're on about.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #38 on: August 10, 2016, 09:57:43 PM »
i want the president to be lawful and constitutional.  that means nominating a justice.  it's a rule.  i also want citizens to be lawful and constitutional.  that means not resorting to violence simply because the party you don't like nominated a justice you don't like.

in case you haven't noticed, people disagree about rights.  there is no universally accepted interpretation of either rights in general or constitutional amendments in particular.  all you're fundamentally saying is that if the courts don't agree with your particular interpretation of the quran the constitution, then you're going to make them pay.

"The president can do whatever they want as long as it's legal!" Haha, good one.

Also, you're right, if I were a Muslim, then believing that my book should be implemented in government would be my right. I may even violently fight for that right. As you may or may not have noticed, a lot of Muslims are doing that very thing.

again, really can't emphasize this enough: that's how terrorists deal with political differences.  "if i don't get what i'm entitled to politically, then i'm going to hurt you."

It's how a suppressed citizenship deals with a tyrannical government. It's quite literally how the United States came into being. Your constant "but, but, terrorism!" is a pathetic cop-out. I'm not talking about me, as a single person, bombing buildings or assassinating people, that doesn't solve anything. I'm speaking of a large portion of the citizenry will lash out against someone trying to suppress their gun rights. But, as I said before, that will never happen. No one is dumb enough to actually try to take guns. At best, Hillary would encourage the idea of taxing them into oblivion.


rights talk doesn't disgust me.  i love rights.  like the right to agree with anyone i want to, have any opinion i want to, supports any candidate i want to, and value any public policy i want to.  and the right of the president to do what the constitution says presidents are supposed to do, and what senates are supposed to do, and what courts are supposed to do.

i'm not on the side of 'everybody better do things my way or get shot' or whatever other internet tough guy bullshit you're on about.

Where did I say any of that? I mentioned that the second amendment will be protected by the second amendment. That's not "everyone better do what I say or be shot!" that's a warning. The very purpose of the second amendment is to serve as that warning. A warning that if a government goes too far, it is the right of the people to draw the line.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2016, 10:01:42 PM by Rushy »

Re: Gun Rights: The Definitive Edition
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2016, 03:08:34 AM »
"The president can do whatever they want as long as it's legal!" Haha, good one.

yeah that's how laws work.  by definition.  the things that are legal are permissible.  the thing that are illegal are not permissible.  the democratically elected president can nominate a justice because that's what the constitution directs him or her to do.  the democratically elected senate can confirm or deny that nomination because that's what the constitution directs them to do.  citizens control who is in the senate and who sits in the white house.

i don't think you've actually thought through what you're saying.  just think for a moment about the implications of your argument that there are things that are legal and constitutional but can still justifiably be resisted with force and violence.  individuals and groups do not get to unilaterally  constrain others from actions that are constitutionally protected simply because they decided that they don't like the outcome, or to enforce their interpretation of an amendment over the one that was achieved through constitutionally protected checks and balances.

is that the world you want to live in, where people who believe health care is a universal right get to arm themselves in support of it?  what about blm protestors who believe that the state is denying them their basic fundamental liberties?  are you down with them arming up?  does the state get to make caveats to the first amendment?  i mean, just because something is legal doesn't mean you should be able to do it, so the state gets to do that, too?  what about non-state actors?  can other political groups decide that i can't "do i want just because it's legal" and use force to stop me from saying things they don't like?  what if i agree with and support positions that they think deny rights to others, like a pro-abortion stance?  are they justified in using force to stop me?  you down with that?

Also, you're right, if I were a Muslim, then believing that my book should be implemented in government would be my right. I may even violently fight for that right. As you may or may not have noticed, a lot of Muslims are doing that very thing.

cool, i don't think that should be the model for political change in the united states is what i'm saying.  i think constitutionally prescribed remedies are preferable to living in mosul or aleppo or whatever you're trying to say.

It's how a suppressed citizenship deals with a tyrannical government.

a democratically elected president fulfilling his or her constitutionally protected duties is the exact opposite of tyranny.  that's called rule of law, and i don't want to live in a place where it is unilaterally usurped.  i'd don't think the people who voted for those outcomes should have their votes cancelled by whoever is most willing to be violent/has the most guns.

Where did I say any of that? I mentioned that the second amendment will be protected by the second amendment. That's not "everyone better do what I say or be shot!" that's a warning. The very purpose of the second amendment is to serve as that warning. A warning that if a government goes too far, it is the right of the people to draw the line.

right, you're not using threats of violence, you're just saying that if hillary clinton nominates a justice who interprets the second amendment differently than you do, the people with guns are going to make her regret it and everyone who agrees with her. 

again, it is absolutely defies logic to suggest that the constitution prohibits what the constitution prescribes, or that adhering to its mandates is "government going too far."  i kinda doubt that the founders intended the people to "draw the line" at the lawful fulfillment of constitutional mandates.  more-so than any other time i've said it, what you're saying is literal nonsense. 

i guess i didn't read the bit in the constitution about how the second amendment is immune from judicial review.  which section is that in again?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 03:13:53 AM by garygreen »
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