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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #100 on: October 07, 2014, 09:23:08 PM »
Before I read your links Tom. I'd like to make sure that all of these studies are done on people who have had normal levels of vitamin C and had a proper diet before taking these supplements.

The norm in controlled clinical studies are randomized trials. Selecting patients based on a particular diet would bias the study.

Rama Set

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #101 on: October 07, 2014, 10:29:44 PM »
Before I read your links Tom. I'd like to make sure that all of these studies are done on people who have had normal levels of vitamin C and had a proper diet before taking these supplements.


This. Like I said controls.

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #102 on: October 07, 2014, 11:03:52 PM »
Before I read your links Tom. I'd like to make sure that all of these studies are done on people who have had normal levels of vitamin C and had a proper diet before taking these supplements.

The norm in controlled clinical studies are randomized trials. Selecting patients based on a particular diet would bias the study.

I understand that, but demonstrating that someone who is nutrient deficient benefits from receiving adequate nutrition isn't really shocking. I'm assuming these specific studies show that individuals who are eating proper diets benefit from these supplements.
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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #103 on: October 08, 2014, 12:15:54 AM »
Before I read your links Tom. I'd like to make sure that all of these studies are done on people who have had normal levels of vitamin C and had a proper diet before taking these supplements.

The norm in controlled clinical studies are randomized trials. Selecting patients based on a particular diet would bias the study.

This is not strictly true.  You can have a randomized sample within a controlled group.  I see advertisements all the time for trials involving "healthy, non-smokers".


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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2014, 02:45:43 AM »
I take 600mg of vitamin c a day in liquid form, because why the fuck not. The next time I get sick I'm going to try 5000mg a day in crystal form and see if it does anything.

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Offline Tau

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2014, 03:59:44 AM »
I take 600mg of vitamin c a day in liquid form, because why the fuck not. The next time I get sick I'm going to try 5000mg a day in crystal form and see if it does anything.

I snort a gram every 6 hours. Haven't gotten sick since I've started.
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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2014, 04:15:14 AM »
Cocaine's a hell of a drug.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2014, 09:25:11 AM »
Also Tom, there is a patented form of vitamin c. It has bioflavonoids in it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #109 on: October 22, 2014, 06:13:01 AM »
I understand that, but demonstrating that someone who is nutrient deficient benefits from receiving adequate nutrition isn't really shocking. I'm assuming these specific studies show that individuals who are eating proper diets benefit from these supplements.

The fallacy in that argument is that if these people all had the most perfect diets they wouldn't be sick in the first place. Few long time vegetarians have high cholesterol, for example. Many diseases can be helped to some degree by including more fruits and vegetables into your diet (although sometimes a disease has progressed so far that recovery is impossible through a diet adjustment alone)

This is why everyone is always telling you to eat your greens. The reason fruits and vegetables are good for you is that they are filled with vitamins and compounds which are anti-parasite in nature. Plants don't like to have bacteria, fungi and viruses living in them, so they create things which repel them. Herbal medicine is an extension of this, an attempt to find the most potent plants which repel bacteria/fungi/viruses.

Like humans and other animals, plants also have their own "good" bacteria on and in them, which help them out, and which they strive to protect and keep alive. Since animals are in symbiosis with the plants the vitamins and enzymes of a plant tend to help our good bacteria and repel the bad ones. This is why you will sometimes see cats eating grass. They find the most bitter ones they can. It keeps them healthy and disease free.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 06:51:50 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #110 on: October 22, 2014, 06:30:33 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_nature

Why is it a fallacy to assume that things natural for the body are better than things unnatural to the body? Is there any artificial food that's better for us than natural food? Is there any drug with no listed long term side effects?

It is very rare for a natural medicine to have a side effect. The main side effects experienced come as a result of being too efficient in killing the disease. Sometimes when megadosing on Vitamin C IVs or other vitamins a particularly sick patient can become nauseous. But that is only because Vitamin C is so extraordinary at ending the life of diseases that it leaves too many dead bodies to filter out of the system. An answer is to ramp up dosage slowly, which most naturopathic physicians do. There are also other things, like Chollera, that one can take to bind to the debris and turn it inert for easier filtering.

Diarrhea with oral Vitamin C isn't really a side effect of the substance, since the body will go diarrhea if it detects an excess of most things natural to it, even strawberries. It's more of a gauging tool. The body knows how much it needs, and will absorb more or less as necessary before reaching bowel tolerance. This is not the case of pharmaceutical drugs alien to it. The body has a hard time filtering something it was not meant to filter, which is why so many people worsen after being on pharmaceuticals for a long period of time.

The difference in side effects is night and day.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 06:01:15 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #111 on: October 22, 2014, 01:22:25 PM »
The biggest side effect of a lot of natural medicine is the disease keeps terrorizing your body.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #112 on: October 22, 2014, 01:51:15 PM »
Is there any artificial food that's better for us than natural food?

Yes.
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Rama Set

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #113 on: October 22, 2014, 02:06:47 PM »

The fallacy in that argument is that if these people all had the most perfect diets they wouldn't be sick in the first place.

What?  This is hogwash.  How can you possibly claim this as any sort of fact?

Ghost of V

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #114 on: October 22, 2014, 04:53:33 PM »
I take multi-vitamins everyday because I have a terrible diet.

Tom, are you saying that if I take a handful of these multi-vitamins a day (isntead of just 3) that I'll have perfect health and could potentially live forever? Does Vitamin C counter aging as well? How many vitamins do I have to take per day to become immortal?

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Offline Tau

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #115 on: October 22, 2014, 05:31:18 PM »
I take multi-vitamins everyday because I have a terrible diet.

Tom, are you saying that if I take a handful of these multi-vitamins a day (isntead of just 3) that I'll have perfect health and could potentially live forever? Does Vitamin C counter aging as well? How many vitamins do I have to take per day to become immortal?

Vitamin C boosts telemerase production in adults and allows them to live indefinitely.

I take 600mg of vitamin c a day in liquid form, because why the fuck not. The next time I get sick I'm going to try 5000mg a day in crystal form and see if it does anything.

I snort a gram every 6 hours. Haven't gotten sick since I've started.

This is no longer true. Do not follow this advice.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #116 on: October 22, 2014, 07:56:25 PM »

The fallacy in that argument is that if these people all had the most perfect diets they wouldn't be sick in the first place.

What?  This is hogwash.  How can you possibly claim this as any sort of fact?

It's absolutely a fact. Diet has a profound effect on the human condition. A good diet is the most important thing you can do for yourself. A good diet is nearly impossible to get these days, what with pesticides on vegetables and antibiotics in meat and eggs, but possible if one is willing to spend the money. Organic fruit and hormone and antibiotic-free food from places like Whole Foods are good. But even then, there are complex vitamins, flavanoids, and enzymes are so fragile that they start coming apart and degrading within minutes of being plucked from the stem, many of which are impossible to synthesize in pill or liquid form.

The absolute best diet is all but impossible for most people today, but it is to eat as naturally has humanly possible: how our ancestors did it. Meat must be fresh. Fruit and vegetables must be eaten from the vine, from the ground, and full of dirt and covered in important soil-based organisms which are also symbiotic to animals. People self-identifying themselves as "healthy" who have done this have reported feeling full of life, clarity, and an overall sense of being in prime health.

There are many reports of people on Curezone who have cured their Type II Diabetes, a condition considered incurable in medicine, by going on an entirely raw diet. There are reports of people who have resolved their Chrons Disease, another incurable condition, through soil-based organisms.

The benefits of megadosing Vitamin C is great and all, but no one should have gotten to that state to need that in the first place. Our immune system was evolved over billions of years to live in a healthy state in symbiosis with a primitive style of life in tune with nature. The closer we can get to that, the healthier we will be.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 07:58:37 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #117 on: October 22, 2014, 08:52:18 PM »
The only objection I have to what you just wrote was that organic fruits and vegetables are almost certainly not pesticide/herbicide free. It's also not necessarily true that organic pesticides are any safer/better for you, or the environment.
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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #118 on: October 22, 2014, 09:00:19 PM »
I had no idea that eating dirt was healthy. These are great tips, Tom. I'll make sure to eat a handful of dirt a day now.

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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #119 on: October 22, 2014, 09:20:12 PM »
Our ancestors had such good diets from all those freshly picked veggies that they lived to be about 30 if they were lucky.