The phases of the moon
« on: August 17, 2017, 10:00:06 AM »
Posted a while back on FAQ got told to post elsewhere.

I created this account just to ask this question because I couldn't find it anywhere else, but in the moving diagram on the societies website (I have attached a screenshot and a link to the page due to restrictions on attachment size) - which the wiki says is the generally most accepted model for the movement of the sun and the moon - it doesn't explain the lunar cycle (New moon, waxing, full moon, waning). In normal science it is explained with the shadow of the round earth being cast onto the light side of the moon, however this can not be the case if the earth is flat and the light side of the moon never passes through the shadow of the earth, or any shadow for that instance. In this model the bottom of the moon would be more cut off starting from half way the further away from the north pole you are due to only the side facing the sun being lit up and the bottom not (unless the sun is significantly closer to the earth than the moon). Further more, through out the night the angle of the cut off the bottom of the moon would also change due to the angle at which you would view the moon and to a more severe degree again depending on your distance from the north pole (I don't want to say latitude as that relies on the degree around the earth you are and that clearly has no relevance to a flat earth). Please can someone explain this.


https://wiki.tfes.org/Frequently_Asked_Questions - link to moving diagram of day night cycle   :-B

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2017, 10:20:35 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon

Quote
When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow created from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.

The lunar phases vary cyclically according to the changing geometry of the Moon and Sun, which are constantly wobbling up and down and exchange altitudes as they rotate around the North Pole.

When the moon and sun are at the same altitude one half of the lunar surface is illuminated and pointing towards the sun, This is called the First Quarter Moon. When the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. The boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated hemispheres is called the terminator.

When the moon is below the sun's altitude the moon is dark and a New Moon occurs.

When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs.

The time between two full moons, or between successive occurrences of the same phase, is about 29.53 days (29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes) on average. This denotes the cycle of alternating altitudes.

Also check out the Moon's Monthly Analemma. We can see it moving up and downwards over the course of its lunar cycle in relation the the ecliptic:

http://www.skymarvels.com/news2010-10.htm

« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 12:57:53 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2017, 11:39:18 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon

Quote
When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow created from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.

The lunar phases vary cyclically according to the changing geometry of the Moon and Sun, which are constantly wobbling up and down and exchange altitudes as they rotate around the North Pole.

When the moon and sun are at the same altitude one half of the lunar surface is illuminated and pointing towards the sun, This is called the First Quarter Moon. When the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. The boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated hemispheres is called the terminator.

When the moon is below the sun's altitude the moon is dark and a New Moon occurs.

When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs.

The time between two full moons, or between successive occurrences of the same phase, is about 29.53 days (29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes) on average. This denotes the cycle of alternating altitudes.

Also check out the Moon's Monthly Analemma. We can see it moving up and downwards over the course of its lunar cycle in relation the the ecliptic:

http://www.skymarvels.com/news2010-10.htm


Your link tells us about the earth

Equatorial Radius:    6,378.1 km
Polar Radius:    6,356.8 km
Rotational Flattening:    0.00335
Mass:    5.9736 trillion trillion tons

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2017, 11:41:33 AM »
Your link tells us about the earth

Equatorial Radius:    6,378.1 km
Polar Radius:    6,356.8 km
Rotational Flattening:    0.00335
Mass:    5.9736 trillion trillion tons

That is the Round Earth Theory, yes.

Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2017, 12:41:57 PM »
How? What is the mechanism that makes the sun and the moon 'bounce' up and down above us? Or is it the same one that moves the sun from it's North Pole orbit to it's South Pole orbit in the dual pole model?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2017, 05:00:01 PM »
How? What is the mechanism that makes the sun and the moon 'bounce' up and down above us? Or is it the same one that moves the sun from it's North Pole orbit to it's South Pole orbit in the dual pole model?

As empericists we are only permitted to say that, while the movements are visible to us, the mechanism is unknown.

Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2017, 05:34:42 PM »
How? What is the mechanism that makes the sun and the moon 'bounce' up and down above us? Or is it the same one that moves the sun from it's North Pole orbit to it's South Pole orbit in the dual pole model?

As empericists we are only permitted to say that, while the movements are visible to us, the mechanism is unknown.
Then how have you observed this movement? How do you know that's what's happening? How is what you see only explained by a Flat Earth?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2017, 03:37:37 AM »
How? What is the mechanism that makes the sun and the moon 'bounce' up and down above us? Or is it the same one that moves the sun from it's North Pole orbit to it's South Pole orbit in the dual pole model?

As empericists we are only permitted to say that, while the movements are visible to us, the mechanism is unknown.
Then how have you observed this movement? How do you know that's what's happening? How is what you see only explained by a Flat Earth?

The movement is observed via analemma. We know its happening because we see it happening. We have not claimed that a Flat Earth is the only possible explanation.

Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2017, 07:14:38 AM »
How? What is the mechanism that makes the sun and the moon 'bounce' up and down above us? Or is it the same one that moves the sun from it's North Pole orbit to it's South Pole orbit in the dual pole model?

As empericists we are only permitted to say that, while the movements are visible to us, the mechanism is unknown.
Then how have you observed this movement? How do you know that's what's happening? How is what you see only explained by a Flat Earth?

The movement is observed via analemma. We know its happening because we see it happening. We have not claimed that a Flat Earth is the only possible explanation.
But 'you' would agree that the analemma and data in timeanddate.com is correct for your location.  What explanations do you have other than a flat earth?  You are avoiding any investigation though observations and measurement, not even specifying how you might start.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2017, 12:00:59 PM »
How? What is the mechanism that makes the sun and the moon 'bounce' up and down above us? Or is it the same one that moves the sun from it's North Pole orbit to it's South Pole orbit in the dual pole model?

As empericists we are only permitted to say that, while the movements are visible to us, the mechanism is unknown.
Then how have you observed this movement? How do you know that's what's happening? How is what you see only explained by a Flat Earth?

The movement is observed via analemma. We know its happening because we see it happening. We have not claimed that a Flat Earth is the only possible explanation.
But 'you' would agree that the analemma and data in timeanddate.com is correct for your location.  What explanations do you have other than a flat earth?  You are avoiding any investigation though observations and measurement, not even specifying how you might start.

It would need to be shown that the timeanddate.com data is based on a Round Earth model rather than a pattern-based model.

Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2017, 12:44:51 PM »
How? What is the mechanism that makes the sun and the moon 'bounce' up and down above us? Or is it the same one that moves the sun from it's North Pole orbit to it's South Pole orbit in the dual pole model?

As empericists we are only permitted to say that, while the movements are visible to us, the mechanism is unknown.
Then how have you observed this movement? How do you know that's what's happening? How is what you see only explained by a Flat Earth?

The movement is observed via analemma. We know its happening because we see it happening. We have not claimed that a Flat Earth is the only possible explanation.
But 'you' would agree that the analemma and data in timeanddate.com is correct for your location.  What explanations do you have other than a flat earth?  You are avoiding any investigation though observations and measurement, not even specifying how you might start.

It would need to be shown that the timeanddate.com data is based on a Round Earth model rather than a pattern-based model.
I've shown you this before, multiple times. We have an equation for these times, and it's based in part on the rotational velocity of the Earth. Do the times this gives match those of timeanddate? I don't know, I honestly can't really make a good heads or tails of the equation. But I don't care to try and spend enough time with it, as I trust it's accurate information. Feel free to show us it's significantly wrong though.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2017, 01:25:49 PM »
I've shown you this before, multiple times. We have an equation for these times, and it's based in part on the rotational velocity of the Earth. Do the times this gives match those of timeanddate? I don't know, I honestly can't really make a good heads or tails of the equation. But I don't care to try and spend enough time with it, as I trust it's accurate information. Feel free to show us it's significantly wrong though.

That information is clearly conflicting with timeanddate. According to the diagram on your link it says that the equator receives constant 14 hour days throughout the year. According to dateandtime the city of pontianak, which is on the equator, is going to see a little over 12 hours of daylight today. In fact, according to dateandtime, however true or false those predictions might be, that location on the equator will never experience a 14 hour day.

You apparently did not do any research at all into this subject. Why should we assume that your source is accurate and agrees with all other sources?

Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2017, 01:41:19 PM »
I've shown you this before, multiple times. We have an equation for these times, and it's based in part on the rotational velocity of the Earth. Do the times this gives match those of timeanddate? I don't know, I honestly can't really make a good heads or tails of the equation. But I don't care to try and spend enough time with it, as I trust it's accurate information. Feel free to show us it's significantly wrong though.

That information is clearly conflicting with timeanddate. According to the diagram on your link it says that the equator receives constant 14 hour days throughout the year. According to dateandtime the city of pontianak, which is on the equator, is going to see a little over 12 hours of daylight today. In fact, according to dateandtime, however true or false those predictions might be, that location on the equator will never experience a 14 hour day.

You apparently did not do any research at all into this subject. Why should we assume that your source is accurate and agrees with all other sources?
Or you're reading it wrong, as the equator clearly is supposed to have nearly constant 12 hour daylight according to that chart. Now, I'll admit the chart is very confusing, they could have done a better job labeling things. But looking in the other areas green has to be associated with 12 hours. It's the only one that makes the colors match up correctly with what's next to them everywhere. The middle 'section' the numbers denote the location above them, and the outer 'sections' the numbers denote the locations below them. AKA Whoever put this together did a shitty job, but it IS correct.

I'm not quite sure what's going on at the 23/24 hours areas tbh. Again, whoever put this together did a pretty terrible job. But the color coding helps make it somewhat readable.

Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2017, 09:58:09 PM »
I've shown you this before, multiple times. We have an equation for these times, and it's based in part on the rotational velocity of the Earth. Do the times this gives match those of timeanddate? I don't know, I honestly can't really make a good heads or tails of the equation. But I don't care to try and spend enough time with it, as I trust it's accurate information. Feel free to show us it's significantly wrong though.

That information is clearly conflicting with timeanddate. According to the diagram on your link it says that the equator receives constant 14 hour days throughout the year. According to dateandtime the city of pontianak, which is on the equator, is going to see a little over 12 hours of daylight today. In fact, according to dateandtime, however true or false those predictions might be, that location on the equator will never experience a 14 hour day.

You apparently did not do any research at all into this subject. Why should we assume that your source is accurate and agrees with all other sources?
You have yet to give any details of current research you have undertaken.  eg. measurements and observations.

Is timenaddate accurate for your location?
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 09:04:50 PM by inquisitive »

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Offline Rounder

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Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2017, 05:54:03 PM »
That information is clearly conflicting with timeanddate. According to the diagram on your link it says that the equator receives constant 14 hour days throughout the year. According to dateandtime the city of pontianak, which is on the equator, is going to see a little over 12 hours of daylight today. In fact, according to dateandtime, however true or false those predictions might be, that location on the equator will never experience a 14 hour day.

You apparently did not do any research at all into this subject. Why should we assume that your source is accurate and agrees with all other sources?

You're misreading the chart.  The equator is in the bright green band representing the 12-to-14-hour-day.  For most of the year, the equator has just slightly more than 12 hour day.  The black line separating the yellow region from the green region, that's the "14 hour day" line, which never comes close to the equator (and is never at any particular latitude for long either, meaning nobody has a "constant 14 hour day") 
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2017, 01:05:40 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon

Quote
When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow created from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.

The lunar phases vary cyclically according to the changing geometry of the Moon and Sun, which are constantly wobbling up and down and exchange altitudes as they rotate around the North Pole.

When the moon and sun are at the same altitude one half of the lunar surface is illuminated and pointing towards the sun, This is called the First Quarter Moon. When the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. The boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated hemispheres is called the terminator.

When the moon is below the sun's altitude the moon is dark and a New Moon occurs.

When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs.

The time between two full moons, or between successive occurrences of the same phase, is about 29.53 days (29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes) on average. This denotes the cycle of alternating altitudes.

Also check out the Moon's Monthly Analemma. We can see it moving up and downwards over the course of its lunar cycle in relation the the ecliptic:

http://www.skymarvels.com/news2010-10.htm



According the above quoted Wiki article Flat Earth Theory predicts that a Solar Eclipse would occur when the Moon is below the plane of the sun and between the Sun and observer. Today is Solar Eclipse day and according to the Moon Phase calendar, today is a New Moon, meaning that it is at its lowest. Prediction has met reality.

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2017, 01:46:06 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon

Quote
When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow created from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.

The lunar phases vary cyclically according to the changing geometry of the Moon and Sun, which are constantly wobbling up and down and exchange altitudes as they rotate around the North Pole.

When the moon and sun are at the same altitude one half of the lunar surface is illuminated and pointing towards the sun, This is called the First Quarter Moon. When the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. The boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated hemispheres is called the terminator.

When the moon is below the sun's altitude the moon is dark and a New Moon occurs.

When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs.

The time between two full moons, or between successive occurrences of the same phase, is about 29.53 days (29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes) on average. This denotes the cycle of alternating altitudes.

Also check out the Moon's Monthly Analemma. We can see it moving up and downwards over the course of its lunar cycle in relation the the ecliptic:

http://www.skymarvels.com/news2010-10.htm



According the above quoted Wiki article Flat Earth Theory predicts that a Solar Eclipse would occur when the Moon is below the plane of the sun and between the Sun and observer. Today is Solar Eclipse day and according to the Moon Phase calendar, today is a New Moon, meaning that it is at its lowest. Prediction has met reality.

What force acts upon the moon to make it bob up and down? It would have to be a massive force. Also, why does the moon not change size during this bobbing up and down relative to the distance it would have to move?
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2017, 01:53:01 AM »
https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Phases_of_the_Moon

Quote
When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow created from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time.

The lunar phases vary cyclically according to the changing geometry of the Moon and Sun, which are constantly wobbling up and down and exchange altitudes as they rotate around the North Pole.

When the moon and sun are at the same altitude one half of the lunar surface is illuminated and pointing towards the sun, This is called the First Quarter Moon. When the observer looks up he will see a shadow cutting the moon in half. The boundary between the illuminated and unilluminated hemispheres is called the terminator.

When the moon is below the sun's altitude the moon is dark and a New Moon occurs.

When the moon is above the altitude of the sun the moon is fully lit and a Full Moon occurs.

The time between two full moons, or between successive occurrences of the same phase, is about 29.53 days (29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes) on average. This denotes the cycle of alternating altitudes.

Also check out the Moon's Monthly Analemma. We can see it moving up and downwards over the course of its lunar cycle in relation the the ecliptic:

http://www.skymarvels.com/news2010-10.htm



According the above quoted Wiki article Flat Earth Theory predicts that a Solar Eclipse would occur when the Moon is below the plane of the sun and between the Sun and observer. Today is Solar Eclipse day and according to the Moon Phase calendar, today is a New Moon, meaning that it is at its lowest. Prediction has met reality.
Oh shit guys, tell the papers. Solar eclipses happen during the new moon phase. Surely no one else could possibly predict this other than the flat Earth hypothesis.... Sorry, I'll turn off the sarcasm now.

In all seriousness, this proves nothing either way. BOTH agree on when/how solar eclipses happen to my knowledge. The disagreements are on lunar eclipses (at least if we're just on the subject of moon/sun shadows). RE just happens to have equations that can predict when *and* where one will occur with extremely good accuracy. From NASA FAQ on the solar eclipse today: "How do computers predict eclipses? Astronomers first have to work out the geometry and mechanics of how the Earth and Moon orbit the Sun under the influences of the gravitational fields of these three bodies. From Newton's laws of motion, they mathematically work out the motions of these bodies in three-dimensional space, taking into account the fact that these bodies have finite size and are not perfect spheres, and that the Earth and Moon are not homogeneous bodies. From careful observation, they then feed into these complex equations the current positions and speeds of the Earth and Moon, and then program the computer to "integrate" these equations forward or backward in time to construct ephemerides of the relative positions of the Moon and Sun as seen from the vantage point of the Earth. Eclipses are specific configurations of these bodies that can be identified by the computer. Current eclipse forecasts are accurate to less than a minute in time over a span of hundreds of years." FE relies strictly on the Saros Cycle as far as I'm aware.

Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2017, 02:28:10 PM »
In normal science [moon phasing] is explained with the shadow of the round earth being cast onto the light side of the moon.

Just a quick correction here.  In RE science, the phases of the moon are not an effect of the Earth's shadow.
The moon is half illuminated and half dark at all times as it moves through space (just like the Earth).  As it orbits the Earth we see the half illuminated moon from different angles.  Seeing the lit half of the moon from different angles is what causes the moon phases.
The hallmark of true science is repeatability to the point of accurate prediction.

geckothegeek

Re: The phases of the moon
« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2017, 05:24:48 PM »
That information is clearly conflicting with timeanddate. According to the diagram on your link it says that the equator receives constant 14 hour days throughout the year. According to dateandtime the city of pontianak, which is on the equator, is going to see a little over 12 hours of daylight today. In fact, according to dateandtime, however true or false those predictions might be, that location on the equator will never experience a 14 hour day.

You apparently did not do any research at all into this subject. Why should we assume that your source is accurate and agrees with all other sources?

You're misreading the chart.  The equator is in the bright green band representing the 12-to-14-hour-day.  For most of the year, the equator has just slightly more than 12 hour day.  The black line separating the yellow region from the green region, that's the "14 hour day" line, which never comes close to the equator (and is never at any particular latitude for long either, meaning nobody has a "constant 14 hour day") 

I don't understand Mr. Bishop's confusion.
The chart looks very straightforward in showing the equator as always being close to the green or 12 to 14 hour day band on the chart.

In Dallas, TX, USA , today, Sunrise was at 6:55 AM ; Sunset at 8:04 PM ; a 13 hour, 9  minute day.
Looks close to between the 12 and 14 hour bands.
Tomorrow's Sunrise will be 6:56 AM (Sunset not listed) indicating the day is getting shorter, approaching the Autumnal Equinox, or 12 hour day / 12 hour night  at  some date in September. (Would have to look it up - Friday, September 22, 2017 , 3:01 PM in Dallas)
The equinox seems to be on September 26 for Dallas.:
Sunrise 7:18 AM; Sunset 7:18 PM. But the "Daylength"  is listed as 11:59:10.

Interesting chart.
I am admittedly not as smart nor as intellectual as Mr. Bishop,  but I had no problem in reading the chart.
It would have helped to have it all for all the hours, not just the even ones.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 06:11:59 PM by geckothegeek »