So let's say I'm facing east on a flat earth.  North is 90 degrees to the left of me.  However, if I walk/run/drive/fly/etc in a straight line after a few hundred miles I will no longer be going due east.  In fact, the longer I go in that straight line the more south I will actually travel because north is always defined as the direction between an observer and the north pole.  In order to keep going due east I would routinely have to turn left.  However, we know this doesn't happen in real life.  So what explains this on a flat earth?

Red: straight line direction that starts off due east.
Green: Line showing that north is perpendicular to initial direction (proving that initial direction is due east)
Yellow: Line to north pole showing that after traveling on our straight line path for a significant distance that we are no longer going east but rather more southeast.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #1 on: April 30, 2017, 01:20:11 AM »
Well, even on a round Earth, you're not really tracing a straight line when you go east, you're traveling in a circle.  So it all seems like kind of a moot point.

See, east and west trace circles around the north pole while north and south trace circles that go through the north pole.  So the cardinal directions are as follows: North is Hubwards, South is Rimwards, East is Turnwise, and West is Widdershins.
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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #2 on: April 30, 2017, 12:19:03 PM »
The same thing happens on a spherical earth except at the equator.

Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #3 on: April 30, 2017, 01:47:37 PM »
Well, even on a round Earth, you're not really tracing a straight line when you go east, you're traveling in a circle.  So it all seems like kind of a moot point.

See, east and west trace circles around the north pole while north and south trace circles that go through the north pole.  So the cardinal directions are as follows: North is Hubwards, South is Rimwards, East is Turnwise, and West is Widdershins.

How is a moot point?  The compass behaves as expected in a round earth.  If going east in a straight line on a round earth north I will actually go due east.  If I go east in a straight line on a flat earth I will go one degree southwards for every one degree of longitude I cover.  The point I'm trying to make is that if the world was flat then compasses and navigation would not perform like they do in real life.

Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #4 on: April 30, 2017, 01:53:41 PM »
The same thing happens on a spherical earth except at the equator.

Sorry but you fail basic geometry there.  If you are on a sphere and you circumscribe the sphere (which means traveling west-east or east-west on our planet) the top and bottom of the sphere (the poles) will always be perpendicular to the circumscribed route.  If you don't believe me grab a ball or a balloon, draw a circle around that object, and then draw lines to the pole of the object.

Offline Flatout

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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #5 on: April 30, 2017, 03:10:26 PM »
The same thing happens on a spherical earth except at the equator.

Sorry but you fail basic geometry there.  If you are on a sphere and you circumscribe the sphere (which means traveling west-east or east-west on our planet) the top and bottom of the sphere (the poles) will always be perpendicular to the circumscribed route.  If you don't believe me grab a ball or a balloon, draw a circle around that object, and then draw lines to the pole of the object.
You won't go in a straight line though.  You will follow a curved path called a rhumb line. A great circle route is a straight path but the heading will constantly change.  It is quite possible to get from one location to another following a constant heading.  It is not the shortest route though because it will following a curved path.  The only place where a straight east or west path can be taken is at the equator.  Take a look at Google Earth for experimentation.  If you draw a straight path with a heading of 90° at 45 north latitude the line will trend south.  Google Earth uses great circle routes to draw the straight lines.

I have never heard how the flat earth explains being able to follow a straight great circle route heading east at the equator though.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 03:36:02 PM by Flatout »

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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2017, 04:15:53 PM »
Well, even on a round Earth, you're not really tracing a straight line when you go east, you're traveling in a circle.  So it all seems like kind of a moot point.

See, east and west trace circles around the north pole while north and south trace circles that go through the north pole.  So the cardinal directions are as follows: North is Hubwards, South is Rimwards, East is Turnwise, and West is Widdershins.
It's hardly a moot point from your position because the straight lines paths due east in the southern hemisphere in reality trend northward rather than southward.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2017, 04:37:09 PM »
If it makes it easier, try imagining following a compass due east when you are just twenty feet from the north pole.

Did you travel in a straight line or in a circle?

It's hardly a moot point from your position because the straight lines paths due east in the southern hemisphere in reality trend northward rather than southward.

That is an entirely different point from the one he was trying to make.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2017, 06:17:21 PM »
Sorry but you fail basic geometry there.  If you are on a sphere and you circumscribe the sphere (which means traveling west-east or east-west on our planet) the top and bottom of the sphere (the poles) will always be perpendicular to the circumscribed route.
If you circumscribed a sphere, you did not draw a straight line. Is this geometry too complex for you?
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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2017, 08:46:29 PM »
Sorry but you fail basic geometry there.  If you are on a sphere and you circumscribe the sphere (which means traveling west-east or east-west on our planet) the top and bottom of the sphere (the poles) will always be perpendicular to the circumscribed route.
If you circumscribed a sphere, you did not draw a straight line. Is this geometry too complex for you?

It is a straight line over the surface of the sphere.  Obviously you aren't very familiar with coordinate systems.  I'd be happy to explain it to you if you'd like.

Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2017, 08:51:33 PM »
If it makes it easier, try imagining following a compass due east when you are just twenty feet from the north pole.

Did you travel in a straight line or in a circle?

It's hardly a moot point from your position because the straight lines paths due east in the southern hemisphere in reality trend northward rather than southward.

That is an entirely different point from the one he was trying to make.

That's exactly my point.  When you are 20 feet from the north pole  the distance between you and the north pole is effectively flat and you see what would happen to your compass if the world was flat rather than round.  Its only with curvature that compasses can actually perform like they do in real life.  Its only with curvature that a compass will continue to point east if you travel in a straight line.

Offline Flatout

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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2017, 09:12:29 PM »
If it makes it easier, try imagining following a compass due east when you are just twenty feet from the north pole.

Did you travel in a straight line or in a circle?

It's hardly a moot point from your position because the straight lines paths due east in the southern hemisphere in reality trend northward rather than southward.

That is an entirely different point from the one he was trying to make.

That's exactly my point.  When you are 20 feet from the north pole  the distance between you and the north pole is effectively flat and you see what would happen to your compass if the world was flat rather than round.  Its only with curvature that compasses can actually perform like they do in real life.  Its only with curvature that a compass will continue to point east if you travel in a straight line.
You are wrong on this one. I believe the earth is round.  I also know that the only place on a globe where you can travel a heading of true  east or west and have it be a straight line is at the equator.  Every other path with an east or west heading will result in a curved line. 

Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2017, 09:14:34 PM »
If it makes it easier, try imagining following a compass due east when you are just twenty feet from the north pole.

Did you travel in a straight line or in a circle?

It's hardly a moot point from your position because the straight lines paths due east in the southern hemisphere in reality trend northward rather than southward.

That is an entirely different point from the one he was trying to make.

That's exactly my point.  When you are 20 feet from the north pole  the distance between you and the north pole is effectively flat and you see what would happen to your compass if the world was flat rather than round.  Its only with curvature that compasses can actually perform like they do in real life.  Its only with curvature that a compass will continue to point east if you travel in a straight line.
You are wrong on this one. I believe the earth is round.  I also know that the only place on a globe where you can travel a heading of true  east or west and have it be a straight line is at the equator.  Every other path with an east or west heading will result in a curved line.

And even at the equator, in three dimensions your path is curved along with the surface of the earth itself, but so gradually that you would not notice.

Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2017, 09:28:54 PM »
The same thing happens on a spherical earth except at the equator.

Sorry but you fail basic geometry there.  If you are on a sphere and you circumscribe the sphere (which means traveling west-east or east-west on our planet) the top and bottom of the sphere (the poles) will always be perpendicular to the circumscribed route.  If you don't believe me grab a ball or a balloon, draw a circle around that object, and then draw lines to the pole of the object.
You won't go in a straight line though.  You will follow a curved path called a rhumb line. A great circle route is a straight path but the heading will constantly change.  It is quite possible to get from one location to another following a constant heading.  It is not the shortest route though because it will following a curved path.  The only place where a straight east or west path can be taken is at the equator.  Take a look at Google Earth for experimentation.  If you draw a straight path with a heading of 90° at 45 north latitude the line will trend south.  Google Earth uses great circle routes to draw the straight lines.

I have never heard how the flat earth explains being able to follow a straight great circle route heading east at the equator though.

Ok, I think the confusion here is that I'm referring to a straight line path as in "hands off the steering wheel."  I understand that the path will be curved over the surface to the earth.  What I'm saying is that if I maintain the same latitude and purely change degrees of longitude my heading will stay constant.  Does that make sense?  I also understand that maintaining the same latitude is not the shortest distance traveled and that its far more economical to travel via a great circle route.

My point is that if you take your "hands off the steering wheel" on a flat earth with an initial course of due east that you heading will change by 1 degree south of every 1 degree of longitude you travel.  In order to maintain a constant latitude (and therefore a constant heading) you would constantly need to steer left.  However, we know this doesn't happen in real life.  Does that make sense now?

Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2017, 09:32:03 PM »
If it makes it easier, try imagining following a compass due east when you are just twenty feet from the north pole.

Did you travel in a straight line or in a circle?

It's hardly a moot point from your position because the straight lines paths due east in the southern hemisphere in reality trend northward rather than southward.

That is an entirely different point from the one he was trying to make.

That's exactly my point.  When you are 20 feet from the north pole  the distance between you and the north pole is effectively flat and you see what would happen to your compass if the world was flat rather than round.  Its only with curvature that compasses can actually perform like they do in real life.  Its only with curvature that a compass will continue to point east if you travel in a straight line.
You are wrong on this one. I believe the earth is round.  I also know that the only place on a globe where you can travel a heading of true  east or west and have it be a straight line is at the equator.  Every other path with an east or west heading will result in a curved line.

Yes, the line will be curved because the surface of the earth is curved but you won't have to constantly change course.  You can effectively take your hands off the wheel and you will maintain a due east/west course.  This kind of behavior is impossible on a flat earth.  Sorry for the confusion, I was trying to simplify things for people who aren't familiar with navigation but I think I confused you in the process because you actually understand how travel over the earth actually occurs.

Offline Flatout

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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2017, 09:41:19 PM »
If it makes it easier, try imagining following a compass due east when you are just twenty feet from the north pole.

Did you travel in a straight line or in a circle?

It's hardly a moot point from your position because the straight lines paths due east in the southern hemisphere in reality trend northward rather than southward.

That is an entirely different point from the one he was trying to make.

That's exactly my point.  When you are 20 feet from the north pole  the distance between you and the north pole is effectively flat and you see what would happen to your compass if the world was flat rather than round.  Its only with curvature that compasses can actually perform like they do in real life.  Its only with curvature that a compass will continue to point east if you travel in a straight line.
You are wrong on this one. I believe the earth is round.  I also know that the only place on a globe where you can travel a heading of true  east or west and have it be a straight line is at the equator.  Every other path with an east or west heading will result in a curved line.

Yes, the line will be curved because the surface of the earth is curved but you won't have to constantly change course.  You can effectively take your hands off the wheel and you will maintain a due east/west course.  This kind of behavior is impossible on a flat earth.  Sorry for the confusion, I was trying to simplify things for people who aren't familiar with navigation but I think I confused you in the process because you actually understand how travel over the earth actually occurs.
The only "hand off" perfectly straight courses are those that bisect the center of the earth.  The only straight course with constant headings would be east/west at the equator or true north/south courses.  Latitude constant courses other than the equator do not bisect the center of the earth.  They cannot be followed "hand off".  They require constant "hands on" to follow a heading because they are not straight paths.  If latitude lines where straight "hand off" courses then aircraft would use them to fly from LA to Tokyo.  They don't use that course because it's not a great circle route.  The shortest straight line path goes up near Alaska.  The latitude line isn't shorter because it's not "hands off" straight.  It's actually curved.  The challenge to "hands off" straight great circle routes is that they have constantly changing headings.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 10:53:50 PM by Flatout »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2017, 10:28:07 PM »

It is a straight line over the surface of the sphere.
If you choose to use the name "straight line" to refer to great circles, how do you differentiate them from actual straight lines?
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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2017, 02:12:00 AM »
If it makes it easier, try imagining following a compass due east when you are just twenty feet from the north pole.

Did you travel in a straight line or in a circle?

It's hardly a moot point from your position because the straight lines paths due east in the southern hemisphere in reality trend northward rather than southward.

That is an entirely different point from the one he was trying to make.

That's exactly my point.  When you are 20 feet from the north pole  the distance between you and the north pole is effectively flat and you see what would happen to your compass if the world was flat rather than round.  Its only with curvature that compasses can actually perform like they do in real life.  Its only with curvature that a compass will continue to point east if you travel in a straight line.
You are wrong on this one. I believe the earth is round.  I also know that the only place on a globe where you can travel a heading of true  east or west and have it be a straight line is at the equator.  Every other path with an east or west heading will result in a curved line.

Yes, the line will be curved because the surface of the earth is curved but you won't have to constantly change course.  You can effectively take your hands off the wheel and you will maintain a due east/west course.  This kind of behavior is impossible on a flat earth.  Sorry for the confusion, I was trying to simplify things for people who aren't familiar with navigation but I think I confused you in the process because you actually understand how travel over the earth actually occurs.
The only "hand off" perfectly straight courses are those that bisect the center of the earth.  The only straight course with constant headings would be east/west at the equator or true north/south courses.  Latitude constant courses other than the equator do not bisect the center of the earth.  They cannot be followed "hand off".  They require constant "hands on" to follow a heading because they are not straight paths.  If latitude lines where straight "hand off" courses then aircraft would use them to fly from LA to Tokyo.  They don't use that course because it's not a great circle route.  The shortest straight line path goes up near Alaska.  The latitude line isn't shorter because it's not "hands off" straight.  It's actually curved.  The challenge to "hands off" straight great circle routes is that they have constantly changing headings.

Like I said before, you've got some concept errors.  Even if LA to Tokyo was a "hands off" course the airline companies wouldn't fly it because its not a great circle route route.  A great circle route is the shortest distance between two points on a spherical surface.  Airline companies fly great circle routes because it saves gas, not because its easier on the pilots.  However, if you go due east on a course and you don't adjust your heading after 1,000 miles you will still be going due east.  Its pretty easy to prove this to yourself.  Simplify the sphere to a circle seen from the side.  Draw a horizontal line of constant latitude.  Now, draw a line that bisects the pole.  What angle do the lines make?  Its a 90 degree angle.  Now, rotate your globe any number of degrees and do the same thing again.  Its still a 90 degree angle.  You can keep going due east and it will always make a 90 angle with due north.  Thus, you can have a "hands off" course at any latitude and still maintain a constant course.

It seems like you're confusing "hands off", straight, and shortest course.  The shortest course is a great circle route.  This could also be argue as the "straightest" course since it is the shortest distance over a curved surface.  However, great circle routes are NOT hands off courses. 

What I am talking about is the route you would take if you didn't make any course corrections what-so-ever and how your heading would differ on a flat earth vice a round earth.  On a round earth if you begin by going due east and don't change your course for 1,000 miles you will still be going due east after 1,000 miles.  On a flat earth for every one degree of longitude you cross you will point one degree further south.

Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2017, 02:18:15 AM »

It is a straight line over the surface of the sphere.
If you choose to use the name "straight line" to refer to great circles, how do you differentiate them from actual straight lines?

It all depends on the coordinate system.  That's why things are complicated once you get into three-dimensions, especially with curved surfaces.  If you have the right coordinate system the math can be simple and if you have the wrong coordinate system the math can seem impossible to solve.

Offline Flatout

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Re: How do flat earthers explain travel with cardinal directions?
« Reply #19 on: May 01, 2017, 03:23:11 AM »
So, Silent, are you saying that going due east on the 45 degree latitude on a spherical earth would require no left or right deviation from the original vector?  Put another way, you are implying that the pilot would NOT have to make small corrections to the left from the original vector to hold the 90 degree heading? 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2017, 03:57:54 AM by Flatout »