Offline Novarus

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2017, 08:54:38 PM »
Careful - don't get Bishop Tom started on  the analemma - last time he tried explaining it he said it was evidence that the sun traces a figure-8 in the sky because it switches directions and goes backwards over the south pole in winter.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6072.msg114202#msg114202

And I wouldn't hold your breath for any mathematically coherent model.
Once again, the tools needed to express the Flat argument for the movements of the sun in terms used by most debaters are these:

The height of the Sun
The size of the Sun
The luminosity of the Sun
The composition of the Sun
The orbital characteristics of the Sun
  - width of ellipse
  - speed in various seasons
The refractive index of the atmosphere
The speed of light
The rate at which light loses energy in the atmosphere (since it fades rapidly with distance)
The dimensions of the light cone (in the spotlight sun model)

All in an easily workable list. Should be no problem at all for a coherent cosmological model used to explain the realities witnessed every day by billions of people!

And if the answer is "I don't know" then so be it! We understand.
But it does mean you'll have to find some alternative explanation quick smart if you want to make your theory worth anything.

I suggest going from top to bottom, being very careful how each is answered. The wrong numbers could mean something fascinatingly disastrous for your model.
Have fun.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 08:56:29 PM by Novarus »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2017, 10:25:24 PM »
If you guys want new research done, you can paypal your funds into my Paypal account at tombishopenterprises@gmail.com. My time isn't free. I expect to be paid handsomely for this.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 04:53:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2017, 11:00:27 PM »
If yoy guys want new research done, you can paypal your funds into my Paypal account at tombishopenterprises@gmail.com. My time isn't free. I expect to be paid handsomely for this.
Very funny.

How about you humor us by sharing what your current model already shows in regard to any of our questions, in lieu of charging us for further research. If you cannot answer any of our general questions, then it would appear that you do not actually have a model of a flat earth. Or at least that you have created a model in your head, or perhaps just a theory that the earth is flat, that is based on some random observations. Does not sound very Zetetic to me. Wouldn't a true Zetetic scientist want to collect the data first before claiming to know what the shape of the earth really is? What actual experiments and real world measurements of the surface of the earth have you carried out besides looking through a telescope at a distant beach when the distance to that beach is not something that you have personally measured? Wouldn't a true Zetetic scientist want to be sure that the model is supported by the actual distances one must travel between different points on the surface of the earth before claiming to know what shape the surface is? Wouldn't a true Zetetic scientist wait for funding to carry out the necessary experiments (and perhaps measurements since you do not seem to trust existing measurements) before forming a definitive model?

And what about the personal questions? Do you fly commercial and when you do, do you trust the published estimates of flight times? I have flown a lot including overseas, and more than 90% of the time, I have arrived close to the published time which corresponds to the flight calculators online. When the time varies noticeably, there is an obvious explanation: i.e. delayed take off, headwinds, holding pattern upon arrival.

Do you talk to other people in different time zones? How do you know in advance when to call them? Do you use online calculators to determine the time of day in various locations....or  do you just randomly call until you catch someone without rousing them from a deep sleep?

And you still have never addressed my question as to why you offer astronomical observations as evidence for your flat earth theory when you have repeatedly denied that astronomical observations qualify as valid and scientific data to base a theory on? How are you different in this regard than astronomers, astrologers and primitive tribal people?


Offline Novarus

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #23 on: April 15, 2017, 05:05:27 AM »
If yoy guys want new research done, you can paypal your funds into my Paypal account at tombishopenterprises@gmail.com. My time isn't free. I expect to be paid handsomely for this.

So, remember how you tried to invalidate an experiment because of the subject of compensation?
Yeah. That was a thing.

So either put up or shut up, Bish. You have nothing.

geckothegeek

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #24 on: April 15, 2017, 02:46:11 PM »
If yoy guys want new research done, you can paypal your funds into my Paypal account at tombishopenterprises@gmail.com. My time isn't free. I expect to be paid handsomely for this.

So, remember how you tried to invalidate an experiment because of the subject of compensation?
Yeah. That was a thing.

So either put up or shut up, Bish. You have nothing.

Please be kind to Tom Bishop. He is the spokesman for the FES and the authority for the FES.
He is pretty good at "low content", too.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2017, 02:52:35 PM by geckothegeek »

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2017, 01:17:15 AM »
It turns out that the more typical unipolar flat earth map has the same problem with the area of daylight forming a circle around an area of darkness. I found this diagram that someone else posted on this forum a while back:


So it is not in March like on the bipolar map, but rather in December that the unipolar map has an area of daylight that forms a complete circle around the area of nightime darkness.

I still cannot think of any possible way that a single sun could cast that pattern of light and darkness on a flat earth....unless of course it simply never does. Does any one have a plausible explanation that does not involve a spherical earth?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 01:20:05 AM by Nirmala »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2017, 05:30:51 AM »
There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that daylight would reflect a globe earth when you make that circle, rather than basing the shape on observed reports of the sun.

Rama Set

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2017, 05:54:12 AM »
There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that daylight would reflect a globe earth when you make that circle, rather than basing the shape on observed reports of the sun.

This doesn't make Nirmala wrong, nor does it mean we do not know sunrise and sunset times.  Sunrise and sunset times are easily corroborated.  According to all the observers I know, there is no issue with sunrise and sunset times.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2017, 02:33:00 PM »
There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that daylight would reflect a globe earth when you make that circle, rather than basing the shape on observed reports of the sun.

This doesn't make Nirmala wrong, nor does it mean we do not know sunrise and sunset times.  Sunrise and sunset times are easily corroborated.  According to all the observers I know, there is no issue with sunrise and sunset times.

According to all the observers I know, they haven't looked at the sunrise and sunset times that happen at every point on earth throughout the year.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2017, 02:56:58 PM »
It turns out that the more typical unipolar flat earth map has the same problem with the area of daylight forming a circle around an area of darkness. I found this diagram that someone else posted on this forum a while back:

Yes, someone did allege this baselessly a while back. If I post a picture of a round Earth with a lit area in the shape of Super Mario, will you also accept it as evidence?

I still cannot think of any possible way that a single sun could cast that pattern of light and darkness on a flat earth....unless of course it simply never does.
Congratulations!
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
Follow the Flat Earth Society on Twitter and Facebook!

If we are not speculating then we must assume

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #30 on: April 17, 2017, 04:48:22 PM »
It turns out that the more typical unipolar flat earth map has the same problem with the area of daylight forming a circle around an area of darkness. I found this diagram that someone else posted on this forum a while back:

Yes, someone did allege this baselessly a while back. If I post a picture of a round Earth with a lit area in the shape of Super Mario, will you also accept it as evidence?

I still cannot think of any possible way that a single sun could cast that pattern of light and darkness on a flat earth....unless of course it simply never does.
Congratulations!

I am not currently believing any evidence based on the bipolar and unipolar maps, but it is all I have to work with since there are so few other maps of the flat earth that have been offered for consideration. So in this thread, by pointing out the flaws in those maps, I am really questioning the entire model of a flat earth since no one has ever offered a map or model of a flat earth that is consistent with areas of daylight throughout the year, and also with flight paths and distances in the real world. If you have better evidence including a better map or model that does explain such things, then please do share. It is fine with me if it is offered at first as a theoretical possibility, and also if it is not extremely accurate. I am just looking for a starting point for conversation as to how these observed phenomenon would be possible on a flat earth. I have not seen any such roughly constructed or loosely described map, model or geometric construct that even suggests that all of these observations would be possible on a flat earth. I take it this forum has been going for a while and I may not have seen it yet. Have you? Again, if so, please share it with me.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Why should we assume that the globe earth daylight patterns hold in reality when no one has been able to post observational records to corroborate them?

Why should we assume that the globe earth daylight patterns hold in reality when no one has been able to post observational records to corroborate them?
Please explain more.  We know the times of sunrise and sunset across the earth into the future, all calculations based on a round earth.  All past calculations shown to be correct.

Why should we assume that the globe earth daylight patterns hold in reality when no one has been able to post observational records to corroborate them?
Please explain more.  We know the times of sunrise and sunset across the earth into the future, all calculations based on a round earth.  All past calculations shown to be correct.

It seems that Tom Bishop wants someone to provide him with detailed records corroborating those calculators throughout history and for every location on earth. It is his favorite way of deflecting the conversation on here, to demand absolute proof that cannot be provided, and then to use that absence of proof to deny widely observed phenomenon. If you ask him to prove even one example of the calculators being wrong, he complains that you are unfairly shifting the burden of proof and so dodges that question also.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 05:31:55 PM by Nirmala »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that. Why are you any different?

If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that, too.

Why are you any different?

You seem to ask for proof or records of all places and all times based on direct observations. That is impossible to provide.

If you stated a particular place and a particular time (or several places and several times as I did in starting this thread), I would simply test it/them against the calculators that I have come to trust since I use them regularly to communicate with people around the world. If your report of the sun's locations at those times and places were correct and yet still disproved the globe earth, then we would for sure have a very lively discussion and it would get me to question my assumptions. If your particular places and times were incorrect according to the calculators, then, yes I would ask for more definitive proof of your particular claims, as I would find it very hard to believe you.

But that is not what you do, and so that is how we are different.

If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that. Why are you any different?
'We' are not.  Do published times for sunrise and set in your area differ from observations?  You seem to avoid providing any current measured or observed proof of a flat earth.

Rama Set

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2017, 08:32:52 PM »
There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that daylight would reflect a globe earth when you make that circle, rather than basing the shape on observed reports of the sun.

This doesn't make Nirmala wrong, nor does it mean we do not know sunrise and sunset times.  Sunrise and sunset times are easily corroborated.  According to all the observers I know, there is no issue with sunrise and sunset times.

According to all the observers I know, they haven't looked at the sunrise and sunset times that happen at every point on earth throughout the year.

Fortunately we have things like language and telecommunication, and we don't need one person to corroborate every observation on Earth.  But please tell us more about how sunrise times can't be trusted, but Rowbotham can.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that, too.

Why are you any different?

You seem to ask for proof or records of all places and all times based on direct observations. That is impossible to provide.

I am asking for exactly the same thing that would be asked of us if we made claims that the sun can be seen in certain places at certain times and locations which proved the Round Earth model wrong.

Rama Set

If we stated that the sun was in this location at this place at this time, and that it disproved the globe earth model, we would be asked for evidence of that, too.

Why are you any different?

You seem to ask for proof or records of all places and all times based on direct observations. That is impossible to provide.

I am asking for exactly the same thing that would be asked of us if we made claims that the sun can be seen in certain places at certain times and locations which proved the Round Earth model wrong.

Incorrect.  You could not even give us one.