It is not just a "path of the sun" problem with the bipolar map. There are times of day when both eastern Asia and the United States are in daylight, and Europe and Africa are in their nighttime. How do I know? I speak with clients all over the world and so am very familiar with time zones and when I can and cannot reach a client from here in the US. For example, in early March, when it is 3:00 pm in NYC, then it is 4:00 pm in Buenos Aires, 6:00 am in Sydney, 7:00 am on the Kamachatka peninsula in Eastern Siberia, 8:00 am in Auckland, 9:00 pm in Madrid and Cape Town, 10:00 pm in Moscow, 3:00 am in Beijing, and 12:30 am in New Delhi.

In order for that to work on the bipolar map, the darkness of the night would be located in the middle of the map slicing diagonally across Africa and Europe and much of Asia (but not all of Asia), while the left and right sides including North and South America, Hawaii, Papua New Guinea, New Zealand, and far eastern Russia would be in daylight. Japan and China would be in darkness while Australia and Eastern Siberia would be in daylight. That would be quite a trick with just one Sun. Really, how do New Gunea and Eastern Siberia manage to be in daylight when China and Japan are between them on the map and yet would be in darkness?

Maybe there are two suns...and the reason we can't ever see both at the same time....is.....because.....?

Actually, the more I look at the map, I see that the area of daylight forms a very large circle that encloses the area of darkness on the map....how the heck would that work?

At least the unipolar map does not have this problem of a circle of sunlight enclosing an area of darkness.

PS: It is also daylight on Wake Island, but I am not sure where that appears on the bipolar map. It is located east of Japan. So if it is on the right side of the bipolar map, then it clearly completes the circle of daylight surrounding the areas of darkness on the bipolar map.

Do any flat earthers have an explanation for how daylight forms a circle surrounding the area of night on the bipolar map?

Note added: I also found a representation of an impossible circular area of daylight in December on the more typical unipolar map which i added to this thread here:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6083.msg114879#msg114879
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 01:49:39 AM by Nirmala »

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2017, 06:20:04 PM »
In order to help visualize the effect, attached is a bipolar map with the area of darkness circled in red. All areas outside the red circle would be in daylight, while all areas inside the circle would be in darkness....again at 3:00 pm in NYC in March.

How does that work? Can anyone explain this phenomenon?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 06:21:53 PM by Nirmala »

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2017, 07:00:24 PM »
Not to mention that you can sail west from Hawaii (on the far left side of the map, and thereby reach Asia on the far right side of the map. How does that work?

Or fly from Sydney to Honolulu in about 9 hours when they are almost completely on opposite sides of the map? See: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/QFA3/history/20170414/1205Z/YSSY/PHNL

Maybe this map bears little resemblance to reality? What do you think?
« Last Edit: April 13, 2017, 07:08:04 PM by Nirmala »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2017, 02:17:00 AM »
Two issues:

- No one has ever claimed that map was accurate or verified. It is just a representation that someone posted to illustrate the idea of a map with two poles. That picture is actually a well known map projection of the globe earth, although I forget what it is called offhand.

- There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that daylight would reflect a globe earth when you make that circle, rather than basing the shape on observed reports of the sun.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 05:30:43 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2017, 02:52:59 AM »
Two issues:

- No one has ever claimed that map was accurate or verified. It is just a representation that someone posted to illustrate the idea of a map with two poles. That picture is actually a well known map projection of the globe earth, although I forget what it is called offhand.

- There are no large scale records of sunrise and sunset across the world. You are assuming that the earth is a globe when you made that circle. It's not.

You are correct about the bipolar map. It is the same as the azimuthal projection used by most flat earthers, but instead of being centered on the north pole, it is centered on the equator at the point it intersects the prime meridian. You often refer to the bipolar flat earth, and I believe you also refer to this map on this forum. What exactly are you referring to when you mention the bipolar flat earth on this forum, if not this map? How do you plot the path of the sun in your bipolar model without referring to an accurate map of the earth's surface? There is no path of the sun that would create a circle of darkness enclosed by daylight on the earth's surface, and yet you speak with relative specificity about where the sun is at various times of year as if you are referring to an understanding of where things are located on the earth including various lines of longitude and latitude. Are you saying you know where the sun is most of the time, but not where the continents are?

And meanwhile there still is not any semblance of an even remotely accurate flat earth map, which is quite an indictment of the flat earth theory that no one has created even a rough sketch of the earth's surface that makes sense given the data that is available regarding the shapes of, sizes of, distances between and relative directions between the various continents. As I suggested in this post, it should not take a cartographer to create a roughly accurate map: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6067.msg114505#msg114505

There are lots of resources online that can tell you the time of sunrise and sunset at most locations, including this one that I use quite effectively to  arrange my appointments with people all over the world: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
To claim there are no records is just plain incorrect. Humans have been keeping records of things like the sunrise and sunset since agriculture began and probably before. I have noticed you make a lot of these sweeping statements claiming there are no records and yet if the calculators were wrong, don't you think the people who use them would have noticed by now?

And besides, here is a website with weather records including sunrise and sunset: https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/MUHA/2010/4/13/DailyHistory.html?req_city=San%20Francisco&req_statename=Cuba. Note that the page linked to shows that on April 10th, 2010, the sun rose in Havana, Cuba at 7:10 am and set at 7:49 pm. You can search other locations and dates using their database. How much data do you need to believe that the sun was up in say Auckland when it was 3:00 pm in NYC in March of this year?

I did not assume the earth was a globe when I made that circle. I merely calculated the time of day in several of the locations on the map and discovered that the area of daylight surrounded an area of darkness on that map.

I already know the map is wrong. You seem to suggest that you know that the map is wrong also, even though you refer to it. And you continue to dodge the question of what does the map of the earth's surface actually look like? I am pretty sure I know why you dodge that question, and it is not because you do not have the resources to draw on a piece of paper with a pencil, or cut out the continents from a map that shows them in their correct shapes and sizes and then arrange them like puzzle pieces on a flat surface so that they correspond roughly to the data that is widely available regarding sunrise, sunset, flight times, the path of the sun and more. Exact accuracy is not needed. Just show us a map that is even remotely plausible.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 02:59:55 AM by Nirmala »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2017, 02:58:58 AM »
Quote
There are lots of resources online that can tell you the time of sunrise and sunset at most locations, including this one that I use quite effectively to  arrange my appointments with people all over the world: https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
To claim there are no records is just plain incorrect. Humans have been keeping records of things like the sunrise and sunset since agriculture began and probably before. I have noticed you make a lot of these sweeping statements claiming there are no records and yet if the calculators were wrong, don't you think the people who use them would have noticed by now?

And besides, here is a website with weather records including sunrise and sunset: https://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/MUHA/2010/4/13/DailyHistory.html?req_city=San%20Francisco&req_statename=Cuba. Note that the page linked to shows that on April 10th, 2010, the sun rose in Havana, Cuba at 7:10 am and set at 7:49 pm. You can search other locations and dates using their database. How much data do you need to believe that the sun was up in say Auckland when it was 3:00 pm in NYC in March of this year?

Those are just calculators. You know that timeanddate.com doesn't have people at every location on earth reporting the sunrise and sunset times, right?
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 03:18:10 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2017, 03:06:06 AM »
Quote
You are correct about the bipolar map. It is the same as the azimuthal projection used by most flat earthers, but instead of being centered on the north pole, it is centered on the equator at the point it intersects the prime meridian. You often refer to the bipolar flat earth, and I believe you also refer to this map on this forum. What exactly are you referring to when you mention the bipolar flat earth on this forum, if not this map?

Why do I need to reference a map rather than a model? Is it not possible to know how a door works without knowing exactly what textures are on its surface?

We don't have the budget to explore the world and collect data for the shape and placement of continents. What do I look like, the King of England?
« Last Edit: May 01, 2019, 07:11:22 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2017, 03:09:40 AM »
And yet the calculators work! What a concept, that someone can accurately predict the sunrise and sunset after humans have been observing them for hundreds of thousands of years!

Did you test the calculators against your own location? Do you know people in other places around the world? If you are going to discount these calculators, at least show us a few examples where they are wrong by a wide enough margin to call into question my assertion about the area of daylight on the map.

This kind of brings us back around to the discussion I have tried to have with you on other threads. You criticize the methods and data used by anyone arguing for a round earth, and yet the same criticisms apply to your own observations and those of other flat earthers. For example you suggest astronomical observations are not really scientific and yet you post astronomical observations on here when you think they support your theory. And when someone challenged you to repeat your Monterrey Bay experiment in other locations, you argued this was not necessary, and yet now you are suggesting that I can conclude nothing about sunrise and sunset without directly measuring it in every spot on earth or something similarly impossible. Time to take a long look in the mirror before you summarily criticize someone else's data.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #8 on: April 14, 2017, 03:11:24 AM »
And yet the calculators work!

Where can we find the observation logs that the calculators work everywhere on earth at all times of the year?

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2017, 03:18:06 AM »
Quote
You are correct about the bipolar map. It is the same as the azimuthal projection used by most flat earthers, but instead of being centered on the north pole, it is centered on the equator at the point it intersects the prime meridian. You often refer to the bipolar flat earth, and I believe you also refer to this map on this forum. What exactly are you referring to when you mention the bipolar flat earth on this forum, if not this map?

Why do I need to reference a map rather than a model? Is it not possible to know how a door works without knowing exactly what textures are on its surface?

We don't have the budget to explore the world and collect data for the shape and placement of continents. What do I look like, the King of England?

However, if you really would like this map to be created, all donations are appreciated.

Fortunately, many Kings and Queens and Presidents have already done all of the work for you when they and their subjects traveled the world over the past several millenia. Every year there are over 3.5 million commercial air flights. Do you think they all fly without knowing the location of the places they are flying to? Again you argue over and over that there is no data, and yet we are drowning in data in this, the information age.

And what is a map (or a globe for that matter) but a model of reality? You are saying you refer to a model, well then show us the model you are referring to. When you say the sun goes here and then there in the course of a year, how do you know where "here" is and where "there" is? Are you just picturing it in your head? Or do you refer to a map and draw on it with your finger? Where is the model you are referring to that lets you know how the flat earth works, and how the movement of the sun explains the day and night and seasons?

If you cannot show us your model, then it is not a model.....it is a figment of your imagination.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2017, 03:23:03 AM »
Quote
Fortunately, many Kings and Queens and Presidents have already done all of the work for you when they and their subjects traveled the world over the past several millenia.

They had a much bigger budget to create something which they could fit their round world into. If you would like us to conduct similar surveys for the flat world model, you can give this a good head start by sending all of your money via Paypal to tombishopenterprises@gmail.com. Please select "gift" on the dropdown menu. Thank you.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 03:27:45 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2017, 03:26:05 AM »
And yet the calculators work!

Where can we find the observation logs that the calculators work everywhere on earth at all times of the year?

There are currently 7.5 billion people on earth. Has anyone counted them all? No. But there are calculators that have been tested over and over and shown to be accurate within reasonable degrees of accuracy for such info. If we need to prove every statement and every calculator with all available data, then no statement can ever be proved, and no calculator would have any usefulness. You have a tendency to pick an aspect of the argument that is fairly irrelevant and then use that to somehow cast doubt on the basic premise.

Again, I challenge you to show even a single example where the calculators are off by enough of a margin to call into question what this thread is about: the area of daylight on the current bipolar map in March at 3:00 pm in NYC. And the resulting question: if that map is impossible, then what is the correct map? The rest is just your usual way of derailing the discussion onto irrelevancies, like suggesting that you must mount a completely new effort to measure the land masses of earth before you could ever presume to draw a rough sketch of the earth's surface.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 03:29:07 AM by Nirmala »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2017, 03:29:23 AM »
"Prove me wrong" is a fallacious argument typical of the Round Earther. I don't need to prove that ghosts do not exist. You need to prove that they do exist.

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2017, 03:36:48 AM »
"Prove me wrong" is a fallacious argument typical of the Round Earther. I don't need to prove that ghosts do not exist. You need to prove that they do exist.
That's​ not really true, Tom, because you are part of the vast minority on this issue.  If you are going to bring "enlightenment" to this issue then there has to be something proactive within you.  Placing the burden of proof on someone else only makes you appear incapable of a decent argument.

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2017, 03:43:23 AM »
That's​ not really true, Tom, because you are part of the vast minority on this issue.

So are atheists. Do atheists need to disprove the existence of God now because they are the minority?

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2017, 03:43:45 AM »
"Prove me wrong" is a fallacious argument typical of the Round Earther. I don't need to prove that ghosts do not exist. You need to prove that they do exist.

Wow, we are talking about widely observed and recorded information: time of sunrise and sunset around the world and the shape and size of the world's major land masses that have been explored and traveled between for millenia. And yet you compare them to ghosts. If the datum I am posting about are ghosts, then what data can you provide supporting the flat earth that is not equally ghostlike?

Again have you measured the distance you can see over every section of the earth? Why should I believe your experiment when you have not proven it correct without exception? Maybe Monterrey Bay is a strange unexplained anomaly.  I will not believe anything you say from now on unless you can show me it is true in every possible setting and location. After all, I do not need to prove that you are wrong: you need to prove that you are always right.

And by the way, thank you for this discussion which is interesting and relatively polite. That is seemingly something that is hard to come by on this website.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2017, 03:47:28 AM »
Wow, we are talking about widely observed and recorded information:.

If it's so observed and recorded why are you unable to link me to these records?

Offline Flatout

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Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2017, 03:51:55 AM »
Wow, we are talking about widely observed and recorded information:.

If it's so observed and recorded why are you unable to link me to these records?
Tom, just show us one prediction that is wrong in your own front yard.  Do they only get the predictions right in your part of the world?

Secondly, Tom, you have stated that these things have all been observed and that this all follows a recurring pattern.  You told me that an astrolabe can predict it. 
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 03:55:12 AM by Flatout »

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2017, 03:53:12 AM »
That's​ not really true, Tom, because you are part of the vast minority on this issue.

So are atheists. Do atheists need to disprove the existence of God now because they are the minority?

Proof as you seem to define it is impossible. So without proof, we still have the possibility of reasoned argument. But you short circuit that process when you demand absolute and total proof of any assertion. And then we are left arguing over petty and irrelevant considerations, like whether the sun is really up in Aukland when it is 3:00 pm in NYC in March. If we are going to have to prove to you every detail then there is no point in discussion, and similarly, there is no point in discussing your telescope experiment unless you can prove to me that the telescope you used was 500 power and that you were looking in the right direction and that there were no unusual weather conditions and that the waves always allowed you to see great distance when 20 inches above the water and so on and so on. We can still discuss these details even without absolute proof of any of them. And that is and always will be the context of these discussions.

If you insist on absolute proof of everything I say, and are unwilling to offer even a single example that disproves anything I say, then you might as well just take your bat and your ball home and we will have to call off the game.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 04:05:22 AM by Nirmala »

Re: Areas of daylight are impossible on a bipolar map
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2017, 04:02:35 AM »
A more useful discussion might be if you would either show us or describe in some detail the model you are using for a flat earth. If it cannot be shown or even carefully described, then it is not a model. Definition of "model": a three-dimensional representation of a person or thing or of a proposed structure, typically on a smaller scale than the original.

Is it just something you picture in your head?

What two dimensional shape is the plane of the flat earth? Is it round or square in your model, or some other shape?

Do the oceans surround the land and extend to infinity, or is there an ice ring at the outermost areas?

How do you imagine it to be? Can you draw that for us? Do you have even a rough idea of the shape, size and location of the continents or are those all completely unknown quantities? Is Australia bigger than the continent of Africa?

Are all distances complete unknowns? Then why does the sun spend a roughly equal amount of time in the North as in the South? Does that not suggest that at  least some distances are relatively equal?

Do you ever fly on a commercial airplane? How do you know how long to expect the flights to take if you do not refer to published data and indirectly therefore to the data, maps or computer models the pilots are using?

Have you ever driven across, say, the United States? How did you know how long the trip would take? Did you refer to a map? And if so, therefore is there some data about the size and shape of the continents that you believe is correct enough to plan your vacation around that data? Why can't we use that and similar data in creating a map of the entire world? Is it really necessary to go out and measure everything again?

Do you ever speak to people in other parts of the world? If so, how do you determine what time is appropriate to speak with them? Do you refer to online calculators to see what time it is in some other location, like say Vietnam, Tokyo, Hawaii? If not, how do you calculate the time of day in other locations, and/or how does your model explain these differences in the time of day in a way that allows you to predict that if you call Delhi at a particular time, the person you are trying to reach will likely be at their job?

What and where are the north pole and the south pole in your model? Is Antarctica a continent or an ice ring? How far apart are the two poles? How far apart are the lines of longitude in your model at different lines of latitude? What is the distance from the North pole to the equator? In your model, can you start off in any direction from the north pole and eventually reach the equator by traveling in a straight line? You cannot do this on the bipolar map.

And in that same vein, on a flat surface, a line is the shortest distance between any two points. In your model of the world, where is the shortest possible line connecting the north pole and the south pole (i.e. what is the shortest line of longityde)? What other countries or cities does it pass through? (On the current bipolar map it is the prime meridian and passes through England.) Since every other line connecting the north pole and the south pole on a flat surface would by definition no longer be the shortest distance, how much longer are the lines connecting the two points that pass through other countries and cities? Are these lines curved? How does one navigate along a curved line of longitude, including lines that would need to change their direction by up to 180 degrees? Again, there can only be one straight line connecting the north and south pole on a truly flat earth.

How far apart are the lines of latitude? Do they remain a consistent distance from one another, or do they vary? If the latter, by how much do they vary? In the bipolar map, two lines of latitude can vary in their distance apart by many thousands of miles depending on where you are on one of the lines of longitude? For example, Achorage and Oslo are both at roughly the same latitude, but in the bipolar map, Anchorage is twice as far away from the equator. Is that the case in your model of the world?

And if you really want to only consider information you can directly observe, then have you personally observed the Analemma of the Sun? Have you observed that it does occur in every spot on earth? Have you been to the southern hemisphere or the equator and have you personally observed and recorded the paths of the stars? Why are these astronomical observations of any value when you claim astronomical observations are not scientific? How did you determine the distance between Lover's Point and Santa Cruz? Did you personally measure the distance in a boat or airplane or did you refer to some published map or database of the geography in that area? How can you be certain that those two points are actually that far apart? After all, the map you used may have been created using data from a world leader or organization that was just creating something to fit their round world model.

You say you have a model of how the earth is shaped and how the apparent movements in the sky work. Let's discuss that and not proofs that are never enough for you. So far, it seems to me that the attached drawing is the model you have, since you deny the validity of, or even the capacity to determine, anything more specific about the surface of the flat earth, and the validity of any but the most obvious astronomical observations:


« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 03:37:24 PM by Nirmala »