[Tom Bishop]

The sky is not a sphere which things rest against.

True, it is much larger and more complex than that simplistic image, as any RE will tell you.

It's also not a two dimensional object like a photograph, which invalidates the method of moon angle measurement attempted by the guy in your thread-opening video.  Spherical Geometry is difficult and occasionally counterintuitive.

Again, straight lines would be straight, unless they were resting against something curved.

Your "spherical geometry" of the sky is difficult and hard to explain when challenged because it is fake.

Your video accidentally undermines the flat earth.  The guy claims there is something wrong with the moon angle, but he leaves unspoken the rest of the sentence: "if the earth-moon-sun system is the way I imagine it: flat earth, small nearby sun, small nearby moon of identical size and distance."  The fact that things don't look like you think they should under your model?  That suggests your model is wrong.

I don't follow. What do you think things should look like?

[Rounder]

Your "spherical geometry" of the sky is difficult and hard to explain when challenged because it is fake.

One's inability to understand something does not prove it fake.  I truly don't understand how any modern person can believe in the flat earth, for example, but apparently THAT isn't fake.

I don't follow. What do you think things should look like?

I'm not the one who thinks moon angles don't make sense.  I think things SHOULD look exactly as they DO look, because I understand the geometry.  In the round-earth, far-away-sun, smaller-closer-moon system, the local horizon is not the correct reference against which the angles are measured.  The angle to the axis of the earth's rotation is the correct reference, and when you rotate about that axis the sun-moon angles resolve correctly.  On the flat earth, the local horizon is the worldwide reference, and you get strange angles everywhere except today's sub-solar latitude.

[Tom Bishop]

You believe that if there was a large ruler in the sky between the sun and the moon that a straight ruler would appear to curve in the sky.

For what reason would a straight line appear curved? A straight line should appear straight, no matter which angle you look at it from. You are providing nothing but nonsense explanations.

[TomInAustin]

Is anyone else going to attempt to defend the heliocentric model?

With all due respect, you often times ignore arguments you don't like.   That said. You can mimic the angles using a flashlight and tennis balls.

[Tom Bishop]

You believe that if there was a large ruler in the sky between the sun and the moon that a straight ruler would appear to curve in the sky.

For what reason would a straight line appear curved? A straight line should appear straight, no matter which angle you look at it from. You are providing nothing but nonsense explanations.

[garygreen]

You believe that if there was a large ruler in the sky between the sun and the moon that a straight ruler would appear to curve in the sky.

For what reason would a straight line appear curved? A straight line should appear straight, no matter which angle you look at it from. You are providing nothing but nonsense explanations.

you've been given multiple examples in this very thread.  the edges of the room i'm in are straight lines, but they do not appear to be straight lines.  literally all you have to do to confirm what you're being told is to look around your room.  there are many, many straight lines that do not appear to be straight.

the notion that all straight lines always appear to be straight no matter your vantage point is the only nonsense in this thread.  you're just doing bad geometry.

again, literally all it takes to convince yourself is a piece of string and maybe 20 seconds of your time. 

[Tom Bishop]

You believe that if there was a large ruler in the sky between the sun and the moon that a straight ruler would appear to curve in the sky.

For what reason would a straight line appear curved? A straight line should appear straight, no matter which angle you look at it from. You are providing nothing but nonsense explanations.

you've been given multiple examples in this very thread.  the edges of the room i'm in are straight lines, but they do not appear to be straight lines.  literally all you have to do to confirm what you're being told is to look around your room.  there are many, many straight lines that do not appear to be straight.

the notion that all straight lines always appear to be straight no matter your vantage point is the only nonsense in this thread.  you're just doing bad geometry.

again, literally all it takes to convince yourself is a piece of string and maybe 20 seconds of your time.

Railroad perspective lines appear as straight lines. The lines down my hallway are straight lines. The corners and edges of my ceiling are straight lines. Nevermind that perspective doesnt really apply to an object which maintains a constant 95 million mile distance, where is all of this curving that perspective supposedly produces?

You are not a child. Think for yourself and come up with some legitimate examples to support your celestial sphere theory. Why does a straight line turn curved in the sky?

[model 29]

model29, I thought about your experiment a little, and I believe that I could modify what you propose and make it fairly accurate.

1st, you need to know the sun's elevation angle. This can be determined by looking at your own shadow and measuring it... might have to have a friend's help, then use some geometry to calculate the sun's angle (opposite angle to personal height or adjacent angle to shadow length). 2nd you will need a protractor. By setting the sun at the 0 degree reference point, estimate the moon's angle on the protractor. 3rd, use the protractor again, but orient it 90 degrees with the horizon being 0 degrees, and once again estimate the moon's angle.

Now in your hallway, set up a flash light (sun) above your line of sight at the angle calculated above, set up your moon at the angles recorded in 2 and 3 above, be sure to stand in the appropriate spot so flashlight and ball/moon match the recorded information and that your flashlight in the darkened hall is shining at the ball/moon. This should get you the appropriate phase angle viewed by the real moon above.

Depends how exact one wants to be I guess.  Either way, the "lit portion of a ball appearing not to line up with the light source effect" can be easily demonstrated in a room or hallway with straight walls.

Next time the moon and this effect is visible, hold a small ball out at arm's length toward the moon while standing in direct sunlight.  The "phase" of the ball will match that of the moon and also "appear" to not line up with the sun.

Why does a straight line turn curved in the sky?

For the same reason the straight line consisting of the wall meeting the ceiling (or floor) appears curved while looking left or right at it while sitting here at my desk.

[Tom Bishop]

model29, I thought about your experiment a little, and I believe that I could modify what you propose and make it fairly accurate.

1st, you need to know the sun's elevation angle. This can be determined by looking at your own shadow and measuring it... might have to have a friend's help, then use some geometry to calculate the sun's angle (opposite angle to personal height or adjacent angle to shadow length). 2nd you will need a protractor. By setting the sun at the 0 degree reference point, estimate the moon's angle on the protractor. 3rd, use the protractor again, but orient it 90 degrees with the horizon being 0 degrees, and once again estimate the moon's angle.

Now in your hallway, set up a flash light (sun) above your line of sight at the angle calculated above, set up your moon at the angles recorded in 2 and 3 above, be sure to stand in the appropriate spot so flashlight and ball/moon match the recorded information and that your flashlight in the darkened hall is shining at the ball/moon. This should get you the appropriate phase angle viewed by the real moon above.

Depends how exact one wants to be I guess.  Either way, the "lit portion of a ball appearing not to line up with the light source effect" can be easily demonstrated in a room or hallway with straight walls.

Next time the moon and this effect is visible, hold a small ball out at arm's length toward the moon while standing in direct sunlight.  The "phase" of the ball will match that of the moon and also "appear" to not line up with the sun.

Why does a straight line turn curved in the sky?

For the same reason the straight line consisting of the wall meeting the ceiling (or floor) appears curved while looking left or right at it while sitting here at my desk.

Please provide a picture or video of these curved "straight lines" on your ceiling or floor. I believe you may be hallucinating.

[model 29]

Please provide a picture or video of these curved "straight lines" on your ceiling or floor. I believe you may be hallucinating.

Using the straight line that is the joining of the wall and ceiling, are you stating that while looking away from center to either the left or right, that line does not 'appear' to descend as the distance increases?

[Tom Bishop]

Please provide a picture or video of these curved "straight lines" on your ceiling or floor. I believe you may be hallucinating.

Using the straight line that is the joining of the wall and ceiling, are you stating that while looking away from center to either the left or right, that line does not 'appear' to descend as the distance increases?

You have a video recorder and camera in your pocket. Please take a video or picture of these curved "straight lines". I do not see any straight lines that appear to curve in my home.

[model 29]

You have a video recorder and camera in your pocket.

Not really. 

Please take a video or picture of these curved "straight lines".

Why should I go to the effort when we all know full well you won't understand what is shown?

I do not see any straight lines that appear to curve in my home.

So is that a yes or no to my prior question?

[garygreen]

instead of asking for others to perform experiments, you could perform a simple one yourself and not have to take anyone's word for it:  just make a straight line with a taut length of string.  then, set that line perpendicular to the moon's phase.  then, see where that straight line path leads.  be careful to wear eye protection because it absolutely is gonna point at the sun.

this whole thread is based on a premise that isn't true, and it would cost you virtually nothing in terms of money or time to see that for yourself.  and yet for some reason you simply refuse.  idgi no one's asking you to fund a trip to the ice wall, just hold some twine in front of you for like 10 seconds.

The corners and edges of my ceiling are straight lines.

stand in front of the midpoint of a wall in your room.  look directly in front of you at the top edge of your room, the straight line formed by the intersection of the wall and the ceiling.  notice that this bit of edge directly in front of you has no slope.  it looks like a horizontal line.

now turn your head to the right and look at the corner of the room.  notice that this line appears to point up from the corner and to the left.  it appears to have a negative slope.

now turn your head to the left corner and notice that the line appears to point up from the corner and to the right.  it has a positive slope.

since the slope of this line appears to change from one end of the room to the other, then by definition it does not appear to be a straight line.  ipso facto ergo sum ad infinitium (that's latin for "i proved it my dude").

[Tom Bishop]

You have a video recorder and camera in your pocket.

Not really. 

Please take a video or picture of these curved "straight lines".

Why should I go to the effort when we all know full well you won't understand what is shown?

I do not see any straight lines that appear to curve in my home.

So is that a yes or no to my prior question?

If you are unable to show us, or even give a coherent explanation for why straight lines would appear as curved in euclidean space, then I am going to have to ask you to stop posting and wasting everyone's time.

[Tom Bishop]

stand in front of the midpoint of a wall in your room.  look directly in front of you at the top edge of your room, the straight line formed by the intersection of the wall and the ceiling.  notice that this bit of edge directly in front of you has no slope.  it looks like a horizontal line.

now turn your head to the right and look at the corner of the room.  notice that this line appears to point up from the corner and to the left.  it appears to have a negative slope.

now turn your head to the left corner and notice that the line appears to point up from the corner and to the right.  it has a positive slope.

since the slope of this line appears to change from one end of the room to the other, then by definition it does not appear to be a straight line.  ipso facto ergo sum ad infinitium (that's latin for "i proved it my dude").

There is no curve in any of that. At what point do the straight lines curve in any straight line perspective scene? If we compare any part of that scene with a ruler, the corner is straight. It is only the orientation of the line in relation to us which has changed. The line never curves at all!

Based on these ridiculous explanations it is fairly clear that this "celestial sphere" cannot be defended at all.

[garygreen]

If we compare any part of that scene with a ruler, the corner is straight. It is only the orientation of the line in relation to us which has changed. The line never curves at all!

hey, welcome to the point.  straight lines do not always appear straight.  and it only took you 13 pages!

let me know if you ever get around to trying the string experiment.  you'll see for yourself that the straight line path perpendicular to the moon's phase points directly at the sun.  the entire premise of this thread is just plain false.

Based on these ridiculous explanations it is fairly clear that this "celestial sphere" cannot be defended at all.

it's actually just basic geometry.

[Tom Bishop]

it's actually just basic geometry.

This perspective tangent doesn't even make sense. How could the sun rise and set to perspective as it travels across the sky in the Round Earth model if the sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order for an airplane above you to descend into the vanishing point it must increase its distance from you.

[garygreen]

string.  ten seconds of your time.  you'll see literally immediately that you've been super wrong this whole time.

This perspective tangent doesn't even make sense. How could the sun rise and set to perspective as it travels across the sky in the Round Earth model if the sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order for an airplane above you to descend into the vanishing point it must get increasingly further away from you.

i'm not sure what you're asking.  in the re model the earth is rotating, so the setting sun is just the sun being obscured by the earth itself.  the sunset has nothing to do with perspective in re cosmology.

[Tom Bishop]

In order for an airplane to fly away and descend into the vanishing point to perspective it must increase its distance to you many times fold. That cannot happen with the sun in the Round Earth model. The sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order to cause it to "descend" with perspective it must also increase its distance to you by many times fold.

This is why such perspective effects are impossible in the Round Earth model. The sun is not changing its distance by any significant amount to cause them.

The hallway effect is not really valid. The sun does not increase or decrease its height due to perspective over the course of the day under the Round Earth model, so "perspective" as an explanation for the celestial sphere is bunk.

[garygreen]

In order for an airplane to descend into the vanishing point it must increase its distance to you many times fold. That cannot happen with the sun in the Round Earth model. The sun is 92 million miles away at all times. In order to cause it to "descend" with perspective it must also increase its distance to you by many times fold.

This is why perspective effects are impossible in the Round Earth model. The sun is not changing its distance by any significant amount to cause them.

but it doesn't descend because of perspective.  perspective has nothing to do with re sunsets.  isn't that the fe model? 

i feel like i must not be getting what you're asking.  in re cosmology, the sun is fixed, and the earth is rotating.  the sun "sets" because of that rotation.

The hallway effect is not really valid. The sun does not increase or decrease its height due to perspective over the course of the day under the Round Earth model, so "perspective" as an explanation for the celestial sphere is bunk.

that's a great hypothesis.  one way to test this hypothesis would be to use a string to make a straight line and set that line perpendicular to the moon's phase.  follow that straight line and you'll see that it always points directly at the sun (again: eye protection).

and, as you already know, direct experiment is superior to theorizing, thought experiments, and drawings.  it's best to test these things directly.