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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2017, 08:38:51 PM »
If you don't have anything relevant to the topic of the earth's shape, then I don't see the purpose of continuing. It is a waste of time to try and figure out the why this and why that for every countless thing that happens in the universe.
But the topic is about the change in angular size of Venus and Mars, can we agree on this much?

And if someone makes a topic about the temperature of Uranus, do we have to investigate Uranus?

Tom, you stated that the observations fit with the flat earth model.   Someone must have then done some modeling to determine if it could be said that "the angular change fits with the flat earth model".  I'm just curious about the model.

The current model of this phenomenon was already explained to you. The angular change happened and the earth remained flat underneath it.

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #21 on: March 26, 2017, 09:12:53 PM »
If you don't have anything relevant to the topic of the earth's shape, then I don't see the purpose of continuing. It is a waste of time to try and figure out the why this and why that for every countless thing that happens in the universe.
But the topic is about the change in angular size of Venus and Mars, can we agree on this much?

And if someone makes a topic about the temperature of Uranus, do we have to investigate Uranus?

Tom, you stated that the observations fit with the flat earth model.   Someone must have then done some modeling to determine if it could be said that "the angular change fits with the flat earth model".  I'm just curious about the model.

The current model of this phenomenon was already explained to you. The angular change happened and the earth remained flat underneath it.
Are referring to the link about retrograde motion?

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #22 on: March 26, 2017, 11:21:30 PM »
Tom is obviously tap-dancing like the late, great Gregory Hines. I think you can assume that he has no explanation for what causes the change in angular diameter of Venus and Mars in FET. Maybe someone else can propose an explanation, but you are wasting your breath questioning Tom. He has become the swordless knight in the FE crusade.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2017, 01:32:39 AM »
Are referring to the link about retrograde motion?

No. The present model was just explained. Can't you read?

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2017, 02:44:21 AM »
Are referring to the link about retrograde motion?

No. The present model was just explained. Can't you read?
No, Tom.  An observation from your perspective is not a model.  A model explains an observation and has the ability to create a prediction for future observational testing.  You haven't provided a model, an explanation, or a prediction of future observation.   

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #25 on: March 27, 2017, 07:01:58 AM »
No, Tom.  An observation from your perspective is not a model.  A model explains an observation and has the ability to create a prediction for future observational testing.  You haven't provided a model, an explanation, or a prediction of future observation.

That's not true. It predicts that the angular change will happen while the earth remains flat beneath it.

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2017, 01:20:04 AM »
What predicts it?  Please use your model to tell us the future time in which Mars will be at max angular size?  Please explain your reasoning with your flat earth model. 

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2017, 05:33:59 AM »
What predicts it?  Please use your model to tell us the future time in which Mars will be at max angular size?  Please explain your reasoning with your flat earth model.

To predict the future time when Mars would be at its max angular size one need only consult historical charts and table observations which have shown when it has been its max size in the past and then find the pattern to be able to predict when it will be its max size again. This is precisely how modern astronomers predict the occurrences of the sky, and how astronomers have been doing it for thousands of years.

Geometric models of the solar system have not been shown to predict anything with accuracy, which is blamed on "perturbations in gravity" and the like. In fact, if we go to NASA's website and see how they are predicting the lunar eclipse on their lunar eclipse predicting website we will find that they are using an ancient method of pattern finding to find when the next eclipse will occur. That is basically how things are predicted in astronomy.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2017, 06:25:29 AM »
Tom,  making observations and predictions based on observational periods is not a model.  Tycho Brahe,  who was brilliant at observation,   never did generate a model that accurately fit with his own observations.  That didn't happen until Kepler who was Brahe's student.  Secondly, the naked eye is unable to resolve angular diameter smaller than one arc minute.  Galileo was first to notice the changing angular diameter of Mars via a telescope.  That didn't happen until  the early 1600s.  Your statement that we have been able to to predict the change in angular diameter of Mars for 1000's of years is absolutely false.

You seem to be struggling with the concept of a model.  Observations are not models.  Periodic observations over hundreds of years are not models.  Models are explanations for the historical observations.  A model is tested for its accuracy by using it to make predictions.  If the predictions do not line up with the periodic observations then it needs to be adjusted.  The models of Aristotle, Ptolemy, Copernicus, and Brahe all had errors.  Some large and some small.  It wasn't until Kepler proposed elliptical orbits that the modeling began to accurately fit with the periodic observations.

Lastly, are you able to look at the Java Script for the predictions for the upcoming eclipse?  If you are,  you will see that it's not pulling from a historical record.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 06:43:54 AM by Flatout »

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2017, 06:38:19 AM »
Tom, you seem to make these definitive claims about what astronomers do without knowing what astronomers do.  There are significant discussions across the Internet by amateur astronomers about the free ORSA software.  Amateurs are using it to accurately create back yard predictions of planets and newly found comets. It's not being done with historical period data. Rather, by creating orbital models. Look up ORSA for yourself.  It's free software.  Many are making incredibly accurate predictions with it that include comets, satellites, and planets.  Secondly, through observation and modeling astronomers have found new planets that were never acknowledge by those 1000s of years ago.   
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 06:51:58 AM by Flatout »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2017, 11:58:05 AM »
Tom,  making observations and predictions based on observational periods is not a model.  Tycho Brahe,  who was brilliant at observation,   never did generate a model that accurately fit with his own observations.  That didn't happen until Kepler who was Brahe's student.

No. There has never been an orbital model which could predict things with accuracy. 

Quote
Secondly, the naked eye is unable to resolve angular diameter smaller than one arc minute.  Galileo was first to notice the changing angular diameter of Mars via a telescope.  That didn't happen until  the early 1600s.  Your statement that we have been able to to predict the change in angular diameter of Mars for 1000's of years is absolutely false.

I didn't make the statement that we have been able to predict the change in angular diameter of mars for thousands of years. Please read more carefully next time.

Quote
You seem to be struggling with the concept of a model.  Observations are not models.  Periodic observations over hundreds of years are not models.  Models are explanations for the historical observations.  A model is tested for its accuracy by using it to make predictions.  If the predictions do not line up with the periodic observations then it needs to be adjusted.  The models of Aristotle, Ptolemy, Copernicus, and Brahe all had errors.  Some large and some small.  It wasn't until Kepler proposed elliptical orbits that the modeling began to accurately fit with the periodic observations.

Kepler never created an orbital model which could predict the location of things in the sky. I don't know what you are talking about, but it is nonsense. The only way astronomers predict occurrences in the sky is with the pattern finding method.

Quote
Lastly, are you able to look at the Java Script for the predictions for the upcoming eclipse?  If you are,  you will see that it's not pulling from a historical record.

It is possible to make a Javascript to predict the date of a next celestial event based on the pattern of occurrence. But this would be a pattern-based model, and not a geometric or orbital based model. Orbital based models would be more of a proof of mechanism for the matter of RET, but orbital models have never been accurate enough to match prediction to observation.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 04:54:08 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2017, 11:59:20 AM »
Tom, you seem to make these definitive claims about what astronomers do without knowing what astronomers do.  There are significant discussions across the Internet by amateur astronomers about the free ORSA software.  Amateurs are using it to accurately create back yard predictions of planets and newly found comets. It's not being done with historical period data. Rather, by creating orbital models. Look up ORSA for yourself.  It's free software.  Many are making incredibly accurate predictions with it that include comets, satellites, and planets.  Secondly, through observation and modeling astronomers have found new planets that were never acknowledge by those 1000s of years ago.   

Please show us where some of these predictions have met reality.

Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2017, 03:59:45 PM »
Tom,  making observations and predictions based on observational periods is not a model.  Tycho Brahe,  who was brilliant at observation,   never did generate a model that accurately fit with his own observations.  That didn't happen until Kepler who was Brahe's student.

No. There has never been an orbital model which could predict things with accuracy. 

Quote
Secondly, the naked eye is unable to resolve angular diameter smaller than one arc minute.  Galileo was first to notice the changing angular diameter of Mars via a telescope.  That didn't happen until  the early 1600s.  Your statement that we have been able to to predict the change in angular diameter of Mars for 1000's of years is absolutely false.

I didn't make the statement that we have been able to predict the change in angular diameter of mars for thousands of years. Please read more carefully next time.

Quote
You seem to be struggling with the concept of a model.  Observations are not models.  Periodic observations over hundreds of years are not models.  Models are explanations for the historical observations.  A model is tested for its accuracy by using it to make predictions.  If the predictions do not line up with the periodic observations then it needs to be adjusted.  The models of Aristotle, Ptolemy, Copernicus, and Brahe all had errors.  Some large and some small.  It wasn't until Kepler proposed elliptical orbits that the modeling began to accurately fit with the periodic observations.

Kepler never created an orbital model which could predict the location of things in the sky. I don't know what you are talking about, but it is nonsense. The only way astronomers predict occurrences in the sky is with the pattern finding method.

Quote
Lastly, are you able to look at the Java Script for the predictions for the upcoming eclipse?  If you are,  you will see that it's not pulling from a historical record.

It is possible to make a Javascript to predict the date of a next celestial event based on the pattern of occurrence. This is a pattern-based model, and not a geometric or orbital based model. Orbital based models would be more of a proof of mechanism for the matter of RE vs FE, but orbital models have never been accurate enough to match prediction to observation.
You might want to run that by with some of your developer friends, TextWarrior for instance.

Other than that, please keep up the defense. This thread is becoming my favorite thread as well. You rarely get to see someone make such a fool of himself, repeatedly. :)
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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2017, 04:20:51 PM »
You might want to run that by with some of your developer friends, TextWarrior for instance.

You don't think it's possible to make a javascript that can repeat a pattern?

Quote
Other than that, please keep up the defense. This thread is becoming my favorite thread as well. You rarely get to see someone make such a fool of himself, repeatedly. :)

What defense? The RE side consists solely of claiming that there are accurate orbital models when there are not.

Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2017, 04:28:53 PM »
You might want to run that by with some of your developer friends, TextWarrior for instance.

You don't think it's possible to make a javascript that can repeat a pattern?

Quote
Other than that, please keep up the defense. This thread is becoming my favorite thread as well. You rarely get to see someone make such a fool of himself, repeatedly. :)

What defense? The RE side consists solely of claiming that there are accurate orbital models when there are not.
Of course there aren't. The minute prediction of the coming solar eclipse and detailed information about where it can be observed is a proof of your [Citation needed] claim.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2017, 04:35:57 PM »
Of course there aren't. The minute prediction of the coming solar eclipse and detailed information about where it can be observed is a proof of your [Citation needed] claim.

Just go to NASA's Eclipse Web Site  -> Resources -> Eclipses and the Soros where we read:

    "The periodicity and recurrence of eclipses is governed by the Saros cycle, a period of approximately 6,585.3 days (18 years 11 days 8 hours). It was known to the Chaldeans as a period when lunar eclipses seem to repeat themselves, but the cycle is applicable to solar eclipses as well."

That is the only method given for finding the eclipse on that entire website. The modern astronomers at NASA are not using orbital models. They are using a method created thousands of years ago by the Ancient Babylonians, a society of people who believed that the earth was flat.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 04:39:39 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #36 on: March 28, 2017, 04:37:34 PM »
Of course there aren't. The minute prediction of the coming solar eclipse and detailed information about where it can be observed is a proof of your [Citation needed] claim.

Just go to NASA's eclipse website  -> Resources -> Eclipses and the Soros where we read:

    "The periodicity and recurrence of eclipses is governed by the Saros cycle, a period of approximately 6,585.3 days (18 years 11 days 8 hours). It was known to the Chaldeans as a period when lunar eclipses seem to repeat themselves, but the cycle is applicable to solar eclipses as well."

That is the only method given for finding the eclipse on that entire website. The modern astronomers at NASA are not using orbital models. They are using a method created thousands of years ago by the Ancient Babylonians, a society of people who believed that the earth was flat.
I see.
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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2017, 05:58:09 PM »
Just go to NASA's Eclipse Web Site  -> Resources -> Eclipses and the Soros where we read:

    "The periodicity and recurrence of eclipses is governed by the Saros cycle, a period of approximately 6,585.3 days (18 years 11 days 8 hours). It was known to the Chaldeans as a period when lunar eclipses seem to repeat themselves, but the cycle is applicable to solar eclipses as well."

That is the only method given for finding the eclipse on that entire website. The modern astronomers at NASA are not using orbital models. They are using a method created thousands of years ago by the Ancient Babylonians, a society of people who believed that the earth was flat.

at the bottom of that resources pages is a bit that says, "All eclipse calculations are by Fred Espenak, and he assumes full responsibility for their accuracy."  if you follow the links to the espenak's 50 year canon of solar eclipses, for example, you will get here.  on page a-5 of the appendix begins a section titled "modern eclipse prediction."  he explains at the end of this section that details of the actual calculations can be found in the explanatory supplement to the astronomical almanac.  those calculations can be found starting on page 450.

you'll also notice that the soros cycle lasts 18 years, not 18,000.  babylonian eclipse tables won't tell you when any 21st century eclipses will occur.  or where.  whoops, wasn't thinking about the cycle correctly.  incidentally, the espenak text does explain in the appendix that the cycles aren't accurate forever and have limitations.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 06:05:46 PM by garygreen »
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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2017, 08:58:41 PM »
One of the limitations of the Saros cycle is that it doesn't predict where on the earth the eclipses will visible. 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 12:59:45 AM by Flatout »

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #39 on: March 29, 2017, 01:00:50 AM »
Tom, you seem to make these definitive claims about what astronomers do without knowing what astronomers do.  There are significant discussions across the Internet by amateur astronomers about the free ORSA software.  Amateurs are using it to accurately create back yard predictions of planets and newly found comets. It's not being done with historical period data. Rather, by creating orbital models. Look up ORSA for yourself.  It's free software.  Many are making incredibly accurate predictions with it that include comets, satellites, and planets.  Secondly, through observation and modeling astronomers have found new planets that were never acknowledge by those 1000s of years ago.   

Please show us where some of these predictions have met reality.
Here is one example.  There is a link to the results in the video.

« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 01:02:47 AM by Flatout »