You say you should be able to see the ice wall from any mountain on Earth, but you can't figure out why I'm asking you if can see every star in the universe at night.

Only an idiot ignores the obvious fact that the atmosphere or "haze" is a big factor in limiting visibility. You really are taking the fun out of this. You have been told a dozen times what the horizon is, but you keep bringing up your Navy days from 1964 and a list of other ways to misdirect and feign ignorance.

You are going on the ignore list soon

You say you should be able to see the ice wall from any mountain on Earth, but you can't figure out why I'm asking you if can see every star in the universe at night.

Only an idiot ignores the obvious fact that the atmosphere or "haze" is a big factor in limiting visibility. You really are taking the fun out of this. You have been told a dozen times what the horizon is, but you keep bringing up your Navy days from 1964 and a list of other ways to misdirect and feign ignorance.

You are going on the ignore list soon

One final attempt before I abandon this nonsense.
Is there really a horizon on your flat earth ?
If so, just tell us about it in your own words.
It has already  been covered in detail for the round, or globular earth.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 06:30:54 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

The nonsense is the fact that you are either wholly ignorant or being purposefully deceitful about how vision works. You can't even grasp the basic fundamentals of sight but want to progress the conversation beyond that.

If you believe that you should be able to see the icewall from a mountain than you don't understand enough about the theory for me to even entertain conversation with you.

Well, it's been fun for a while, so I will leave it to you. Useless to debate with you any way.
If you want to pretend that the earth is a flat disc with an ice ring at the edge, go right ahead and play your silly imaginary games and nonsence.
But the rest of us will go right ahead with our work in the real world.
My only regret is that I never did find out that if the earth was flat whether there would or would not be a horizon, where it was, and how far away it would be if there was one. LOL

Just a suggestion in closing.
I think this website would be a lot more fun if this statement was made.:
"We all know that the shape of the earth is spheroid, or globular. But this website is for ideas on how the earth would have to be if it was flat. This should be a good place to present your ideas and thoughts."
« Last Edit: March 06, 2017, 11:11:07 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

I think this website would be a lot more fun if this statement was made.:
"We all know that the shape of the earth is spheroid, or globular. But this website is for ideas on how the earth would have to be if it was flat. This should be a good place to present your ideas and thoughts."

Yes, we know. You've stated this about 800 times now.

I think this website would be a lot more fun if this statement was made.:
"We all know that the shape of the earth is spheroid, or globular. But this website is for ideas on how the earth would have to be if it was flat. This should be a good place to present your ideas and thoughts."

I'd be all for it if that would help you open your mind enough to actually consider the legitimacy of some of the questions raised by the Flat Earth Theory.

The horizon is the place the ocean meets the sky. Now either you realize that this is an optical illusion, because anyone with a brain knows that the ocean never actually meets the sky, or you believe that it is an actual place, where your vision is obstructed by a bulge in the ocean.

I think this website would be a lot more fun if this statement was made.:
"We all know that the shape of the earth is spheroid, or globular. But this website is for ideas on how the earth would have to be if it was flat. This should be a good place to present your ideas and thoughts."

 

The horizon is the place the ocean meets the sky. Now either you realize that this is an optical illusion, because anyone with a brain knows that the ocean never actually meets the sky, or you believe that it is an actual place, where your vision is obstructed by a bulge in the ocean.

I'm back. LOL.
With my apology. My error . I should have said :  "The horizon is the line where sea and sky APPEAR to meet."
We know what the  horizon is, where it is ,  and how to estimate the distance to it. But we also know that the earth is a globe and not some flat disc. As Colonel Pickering would say : "Common knowledge." (Also what a sailor on lookout duty would say. LOL.)

But the questions are  : "If the earth was flat ?, Is there a horizon ? And if so, what is the horizon ? Where is it ? And how do we estimate the distance to it ? " I am not a flat earther. I don't know the answers. That's why I asking the questions.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 07:29:42 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

My apology. My error . I should have said :  "The horizon is the line where sea and sky APPEAR to meet."
We know what the  horizon is, where it is ,  and how to estimate the distance to it. But we also know that the earth is a globe and not some flat disc. As Colonel Pickering would say : "Common knowledge." (Also what a sailor on lookout duty would say. LOL.)

But the question is : "If the earth was flat, What is the horizon, where is it, and how do we estimate the distance to it ? "

You just admitted that what you perceive to be the horizon is actually an optical illusion. You must realize that it is not a real thing, or a place that you can actually get to. Measuring the distance to it is absurd.

What you are actually measuring is the distance to the point where the laws of perspective condense objects until they are imperceivable. Your assertion that it is a place where the Earth curves away is built wholly and purely on your "knowing" the Earth is a globe.

My apology. My error . I should have said :  "The horizon is the line where sea and sky APPEAR to meet."
We know what the  horizon is, where it is ,  and how to estimate the distance to it. But we also know that the earth is a globe and not some flat disc. As Colonel Pickering would say : "Common knowledge." (Also what a sailor on lookout duty would say. LOL.)

But the question is : "If the earth was flat, What is the horizon, where is it, and how do we estimate the distance to it ? "

You just admitted that what you perceive to be the horizon is actually an optical illusion. You must realize that it is not a real thing, or a place that you can actually get to. Measuring the distance to it is absurd.

What you are actually measuring is the distance to the point where the laws of perspective condense objects until they are imperceivable. Your assertion that it is a place where the Earth curves away is built wholly and purely on your "knowing" the Earth is a globe.

What would be your answer be to the United States Navy ? They know what the horizon is, where it is, and how to estimate the distance to it. Lookouts have been doing this for years. The USN also knows the earth is a globe. Are you saying they have been wrong all these years ?

Still waiting for the flat earth answers to my question. Two can play this game. LOL

Just for review, I'll do it one more time.:
The horizon is the distinct line (on a clear, calm day at sea) where sea and sky appear to meet.
The distance the observer can see to the horizon depends on the height of the observer.
The higher the observer is, the farther they can see to the horizon.
One formula for estimating this distance is :  d=1.22 x (square root of) h (I don't have a square root symbol on my Nook)
Where d is the distance to the horizon in miles
Where 1.22 is a constant
Where h is the height above the level of the sea in feet
Some examples:
For a 6 feet tall person standing up in a rowboat at sea, the distance to the horizon is aproximately 2.9883774 miles
(OK. Figures off  my pocket calculator, so let's just say.... about 3 miles. ) LOL.
For a person in the crow's nest , 100 feet above the sea, the distance to the horizon is aproximately 12.2 miles
These are just quotes and  figures from the USN Training Manual For Lookouts. Lookouts are trained to do these estimates and check their results with ranges and bearings with the ship's radars.

Flat earth answers, please ? I can give you my guess if you would like to see it ?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 10:10:03 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

I think this website would be a lot more fun if this statement was made.:
"We all know that the shape of the earth is spheroid, or globular. But this website is for ideas on how the earth would have to be if it was flat. This should be a good place to present your ideas and thoughts."

Yes, we know. You've stated this about 800 times now.

Yes, I know. But IMHO it's true. Just repetition for the sake of emphasis. LOL.
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

*

Offline Boots

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  • ---- Cogito, ergo sum. ---- -Descartes
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I think this website would be a lot more fun if this statement was made.:
"We all know that the shape of the earth is spheroid, or globular. But this website is for ideas on how the earth would have to be if it was flat. This should be a good place to present your ideas and thoughts."

Yes, we know. You've stated this about 800 times now.

Yes, I know. But IMHO it's true. Just repetition for the sake of emphasis. LOL.

Does it work to try to emphasize something by repeating it over and over?
Where the senses fail us, reason must step in. - Galileo Galilei

I think this website would be a lot more fun if this statement was made.:
"We all know that the shape of the earth is spheroid, or globular. But this website is for ideas on how the earth would have to be if it was flat. This should be a good place to present your ideas and thoughts."

Yes, we know. You've stated this about 800 times now.

Yes, I know. But IMHO it's true. Just repetition for the sake of emphasis. LOL.

Does it work to try to emphasize something by repeating it over and over?

No.

Not for flat earthers....LOL

But it sure did work in school and university...And I know that from experience !

But I still keep trying against all odds. :-(
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 01:54:40 AM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

I think this website would be a lot more fun if this statement was made.:
"We all know that the shape of the earth is spheroid, or globular. But this website is for ideas on how the earth would have to be if it was flat. This should be a good place to present your ideas and thoughts."

I'd be all for it if that would help you open your mind enough to actually consider the legitimacy of some of the questions raised by the Flat Earth Theory.

The horizon is the place the ocean meets the sky. Now either you realize that this is an optical illusion, because anyoe with a brain knows that the ocean never actually meets the sky, or you believe that it is an actual place, where your vision is obstructed by a bulge in the ocean.

I would consider any thing of any degree of  legitimacy from the flat earth if there was any.
It would help if there was a legitimate "flat earth map"of the world for a start.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 01:38:20 AM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

My apology. My error . I should have said :  "The horizon is the line where sea and sky APPEAR to meet."
We know what the  horizon is, where it is ,  and how to estimate the distance to it. But we also know that the earth is a globe and not some flat disc. As Colonel Pickering would say : "Common knowledge." (Also what a sailor on lookout duty would say. LOL.)

But the question is : "If the earth was flat, What is the horizon, where is it, and how do we estimate the distance to it ? "

You just admitted that what you perceive to be the horizon is actually an optical illusion. You must realize that it is not a real thing, or a place that you can actually get to. Measuring the distance to it is absurd.

What you are actually measuring is the distance to the point where the laws of perspective condense objects until they are imperceivable. Your assertion that it is a place where the Earth curves away is built wholly and purely on your "knowing" the Earth is a globe.

What I have repeatedly posted is that the horizon is the line where sea and sky appear to meet and the distance may be estimated by a simple equation (or you might call it a formula.

It is not "A point where the laws of perspective condense objects until they are imperceivable." This does not seem to make sense, A ship which has just reached the horizon is certainly visible. After it passes beyond the horizon, the lower parts of the ship , such as the hull, will begin to disappear. The tips of the highest masts will be the last parts of the ship to be seen. This is due to the curvature of the earth.

Technically speaking, you might not be able to physically measure the distance to the horizon, but you can certainly estimate it to a reasonable degree of accuracy.

The subject of "horizon" seems to be one of the greatest of the flat earth fallacies. And stil no flat earth response for a description of how the horizon would have to be if the earth was flat ?.......Or even if there could be a horizon if the earth was flat ?
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

I think this website would be a lot more fun if this statement was made.:
"We all know that the shape of the earth is spheroid, or globular. But this website is for ideas on how the earth would have to be if it was flat. This should be a good place to present your ideas and thoughts."

Yes, we know. You've stated this about 800 times now.

Yes, I know. But IMHO it's true. Just repetition for the sake of emphasis. LOL.

Does it work to try to emphasize something by repeating it over and over?

No.

Not for flat earthers....LOL

But it sure did work in school and university...And I know that from experience !

But I still keep trying against all odds. :-(

Oh wow. Finally admitting that the "knowledge" you possess is really just the result of a long arduous, repetitive indoctrination (like the one you're trying to give us poor uneducated, non sailor plebes). I can see why it is so hard for you to envision what a flat earth would look like. Literally all you have to do is open your eyes.

You keep asking how the horizon would "be" on a flat earth, but obviously the assertion from a true FE perspective would be "Just as it looks like." There is no mental gymnastics or equations, everything is simply as it is. It took science over a century to concoct the heliocentric theory and another to extrapolate and erroneously compound upon it. To a flat earther, there is no mystery about why the horizon is there, it is understood to be a result of perspective and it doesn't need excessive formulae and thought experiments to explain. The laws of physics and an understanding of the way light travels are enough to explain it.

PS, you do realize you can edit your posts instead of making three of them in a row, right?

I think this website would be a lot more fun if this statement was made.:
"We all know that the shape of the earth is spheroid, or globular. But this website is for ideas on how the earth would have to be if it was flat. This should be a good place to present your ideas and thoughts."

Yes, we know. You've stated this about 800 times now.

Yes, I know. But IMHO it's true. Just repetition for the sake of emphasis. LOL.

Does it work to try to emphasize something by repeating it over and over?

No.

Not for flat earthers....LOL

But it sure did work in school and university...And I know that from experience !

But I still keep trying against all odds. :-(

Oh wow. Finally admitting that the "knowledge" you possess is really just the result of a long arduous, repetitive indoctrination (like the one you're trying to give us poor uneducated, non sailor plebes). I can see why it is so hard for you to envision what a flat earth would look like. Literally all you have to do is open your eyes.

You keep asking how the horizon would "be" on a flat earth, but obviously the assertion from a true FE perspective would be "Just as it looks like." There is no mental gymnastics or equations, everything is simply as it is. It took science over a century to concoct the heliocentric theory and another to extrapolate and erroneously compound upon it. To a flat earther, there is no mystery about why the horizon is there, it is understood to be a result of perspective and it doesn't need excessive formulae and thought experiments to explain. The laws of physics and an understanding of the way light travels are enough to explain it.

PS, you do realize you can edit your posts instead of making three of them in a row, right?

Yeah. I guess it's just a bad habit that I can't break.  :(

This is just my guess for the horizon on a flat earth.:
It is the line where the bottom of the ice dome and the top of the ice wall appear to meet.
But I read somewhere that you can't see it because of the thickness of the atmoplane, which is an indistinct blur which fades away at an indefinite distance. ???

You stick to your flat earth horizon and I'll stick to my round earth horizon and we'll all be happy.

Paraphrasing Will Rogers again, "All I know is what I read in my Navy Training Manual For Lookouts, and that's my excuse for ignorance about the horizon."

As for the distance to the horizon, what's your opinion of those Navy manuals for lookouts ?
It's not just the USN, but all the Navies in the world that use similar manuals for estimating distances.
I am rather dense. I haven't yet figured out how you would do this if the earth was flat ?

Yeah. My work was in military and civilian electronics. And my knowledge was due to a lot of "long, arduous, repetitive indoctrination" in subjects related to my job. It was just part of my job. The people who designed, computers, the Internet and websites like this one probably did likewise. You have them to thank for this website.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 08:07:44 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Offline Flatout

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TheTruthIsOnHere, I think it's easy to say that you need no formulas because you don't have to directly deal with the shape of the earth or the horizon to solve any real problems.  For those who have to communicate,  take measurements, or estimate distances of things on or beyond the horizon then solution formulas are needed.   It has nothing to do with indoctrination.  It has to do with real world scenarios where decisions need to be made, money will be spent, and solutions need to exist.  The value of a model is based it's ability to explain, predict, and solve problems.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2017, 10:09:14 PM by Flatout »

TheTruthIsOnHere, I think it's easy to say that you need no formulas because you don't have to directly deal with the shape of the earth or the horizon to solve any real problems.  For those who have to communicate,  take measurements, or estimate distances of things on or beyond the horizon then solution formulas are needed.   It has nothing to do with indoctrination.  It has to do with real world scenarios where decisions need to be made, money will be spent, and solutions need to exist.  The value of a model is based it's ability to explain, predict, and solve problems.

TruthIsOnHere,That's the difference between the fictional, imaginary,  made up  and unreal world of the so-called "flat earth" and the real world of the "round earth."

I will admit to being repetitive again.....But I will ask one more time....But how would you estimate the distance to the horizon if the earth was flat ? As, once again, as I have said so many times, that it is one of the basic things that lookouts in the Navy have to learn how to do.

For example, if you were in the Navy. Suppose an Officer asked you, "Sailor, do you see that ship on the horizon over there ? Now we're standing here on this deck about  36 feet above the water line. I want you to figure out how far away that ship is and give me your estimate. Then we'll take a look on the radar and see how close you are."  This might be similar to an actual scenario of a training exercise for a lookout aboard a ship. What would your answer be ? I know what my answer would be.

OK , TruthIsOnHere.
I'll edit this one instead of doing another post.
So I ask you, again , point blank, this question : "If the earth was flat , how would you estimate the distance to the horizon ?"

Actually, I did this several times, but in a different way .I would go out on deck and spot a ship in the distance. Then I would go into C.I.C. and look at the radar to see how far away it was. I was not a lookout but a radar technician. I didn't know about that formula for estimating the distance visually at that time. That is one of the things I have learned on this website, which can be  both educational and informative. If I had known how to do the visual estimate at that time, I might have learned something. :-)

Another edit.
And another thing I have learned.
You never stop learning.
A few of the things I have learned fairly recently ..... and just on this website alone.:
How to make a visual estimate of the distance to the horizon.
How astronomical observatories make accurate measurements of the distance from the earth to the moon by using laser beams aimed at reflectors on the moon placed there by astronauts on their moon landings.
How amateur radio amateur operators make the same measurements by bouncing radio signals off the moon in their "Moon Bounce" Operations...Admittedly not as precise as those of the astronomical observatories.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 05:18:54 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

*

Offline Rounder

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  • What in the Sam Hill are you people talking about?
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How amateur radio amateur operators make the same measurements by bouncing radio signals off the moon in their "Moon Bounce" Operations...Admittedly not as precise as those of the astronomical observatories.
But accurate enough to reject the "about three thousand miles away" figure.  Lots of materials exist on the web to help amateur radio operators achieve the coveted EME (earth - moon - earth) transmission.  Private folks have been doing it since the 50's
Proud member of ─░ntikam's "Ignore List"
Ok. You proven you are unworthy to unignored. You proven it was a bad idea to unignore you. and it was for me a disgusting experience...Now you are going to place where you deserved and accustomed.
Quote from: SexWarrior
You accuse {FE} people of malice where incompetence suffice

How amateur radio amateur operators make the same measurements by bouncing radio signals off the moon in their "Moon Bounce" Operations...Admittedly not as precise as those of the astronomical observatories.
But accurate enough to reject the "about three thousand miles away" figure.  Lots of materials exist on the web to help amateur radio operators achieve the coveted EME (earth - moon - earth) transmission.  Private folks have been doing it since the 50's

I meant "accurate" compared to the laser beam measurements. I have read that they have been accurate to 1 centimeter.
Flat earthers blame NASA for all these "Round Earth Lies."  Why not give some credit to the ham radio operators and the astronomical observatories ? They have been at it long before NASA ?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 06:52:59 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !