Offline Flatout

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August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« on: January 06, 2017, 03:19:05 AM »
So the heliocentrist spherical earth scientists are predicting a solar eclipse on August 21st in 2017.  They have calculated the locations across the world where a full eclipse will be visible and the timing in those locations down to the second.   How can they do this?  Can the flat earth scientists predict an event like this?   Are the scientists who are making these predictions really just flat earth scientists who are really smart?  What is the FES explanation for solar eclipses?

I searched the wiki but couldn't find anything about solar eclipses.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2017, 03:31:40 AM by Flatout »

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Offline Venus

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2017, 03:05:56 AM »
So the heliocentrist spherical earth scientists are predicting a solar eclipse on August 21st in 2017.  They have calculated the locations across the world where a full eclipse will be visible and the timing in those locations down to the second.   How can they do this?  Can the flat earth scientists predict an event like this?   Are the scientists who are making these predictions really just flat earth scientists who are really smart?  What is the FES explanation for solar eclipses?

I searched the wiki but couldn't find anything about solar eclipses.

Hi all - I was just visiting here (it's been a while ...) to dicuss the exact same issue.
Yes I have asked here about solar and lunar eclipses before...but got an answer saying they are all on repeatable cycles.

But that does not account for the fact that information of the exact places, times and duration of the USA total solar eclipse of August 21st 2017 is available ...down to the second !!!

The following website is very informative
https://www.greatamericaneclipse.com/best-places-to-view/
Scroll down and have a look at the information provided for each state ... the time and durations of totality are provided down to the second.

Also here is NASA's total solar eclipse world map for the 2001-2020
https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEatlas/SEatlas3/SEatlas2001.GIF

They have these for decades past and decades to come.

Just out of interest I remember a total solar eclipse over my city Melbourne, Australia in 1976. I remember the year because of where I was living at that time (I only lived in that house for one year) and I do remember it was later in the day, so I looked up that map and sure enough ...
Found out it was October 23 1976
https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEgoogle/SEgoogle1951/SE1976Oct23Tgoogle.html
and this one
https://eclipse.gsfc.nasa.gov/SEatlas/SEatlas2/SEatlas1961.GIF

Also noticed this on the NASA website

Quote
Eclipse Predictions
Predictions for the Total Solar Eclipse of 2017 Aug 21 were generated using the JPL DE405 solar and lunar ephemerides and a value of ΔT = 68.4 seconds.
The eclipse predictions presented here DO NOT include the effects of mountains and valleys along the edge of the Moon. Such corrections for the lunar limb profile may shift the limits of the eclipse path north or south by ~1-3 kilometers, and change the eclipse duration by ~1-3 seconds. More detailed predictions including the effects of the lunar limb profile are normally posted 12-18 months before each eclipse
[/i]

QUESTION - How would this information be calculated using a flat earth model ?
Because I live on the 'bottom' of a spinning spherical earth ...
*I cannot see Polaris, but I can see the Southern Cross
*When I look at the stars they appear to rotate clockwise, not anti-clockwise
*I see the moon 'upside down'
I've travelled to the Northern Hemisphere numerous times ... and seen how different the stars and the moon are 'up' there!
Come on down and check it out FE believers... !!

Offline Flatout

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2017, 07:49:43 PM »
So the Flat Earth Society has no explanation for a solar eclipse?  They are unable to predict it?

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Offline Venus

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2017, 10:46:15 AM »
So the Flat Earth Society has no explanation for a solar eclipse?  They are unable to predict it?

I'd say so ...
Because I live on the 'bottom' of a spinning spherical earth ...
*I cannot see Polaris, but I can see the Southern Cross
*When I look at the stars they appear to rotate clockwise, not anti-clockwise
*I see the moon 'upside down'
I've travelled to the Northern Hemisphere numerous times ... and seen how different the stars and the moon are 'up' there!
Come on down and check it out FE believers... !!

Offline Flatout

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2017, 04:41:18 PM »
Well that's a little disappointing.   I would have throught that a model that was fully embraced would have the ability to not only explain but also predict.   

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Offline Venus

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2017, 12:56:29 PM »
Well that's a little disappointing.   I would have throught that a model that was fully embraced would have the ability to not only explain but also predict.   

Yes but none of them seem to be aware of exactly what the Scientific Method involves.

They start from a premise and then try to twist the "facts" around to suit the model. And when the real observations and facts don't fit their model they invent something new eg there is no gravity, a "shadow object" causes a lunar eclipse, "celestial gravitation" (whatever that is) accounts for tides  (https://wiki.tfes.org/Celestial_Gravitation) etc

Virtually the same way the creationists work.

Whereas of course Science works the other way ... we make observations ... devise a theory that accounts for ALL of the observations, and then test our theory by making predictions.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 12:34:17 AM by Venus »
Because I live on the 'bottom' of a spinning spherical earth ...
*I cannot see Polaris, but I can see the Southern Cross
*When I look at the stars they appear to rotate clockwise, not anti-clockwise
*I see the moon 'upside down'
I've travelled to the Northern Hemisphere numerous times ... and seen how different the stars and the moon are 'up' there!
Come on down and check it out FE believers... !!

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Offline SexWarrior

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2017, 04:08:00 PM »
I don't understand - why is a Round Earther trying to explain FET/Zeteticism to another Round Earther? You'd think you would have left it to someone who actually knows what they're talking about if you cared so much about truth over starting with a premise and saying whatever it takes to confirm it. ::)

That said, eclipses are cyclical. You can predict future eclipses by following the well-known and documented pattern. This is true for both FET and RET.
<Parsifal> Jesus Christ
<Parsifal> Do I really have to write 6000-word sentences just to remove all ambiguity from everything I'm saying?

Where live, do the offer adult reading classes?

Offline Flatout

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2017, 04:19:01 PM »
I don't understand - why is a Round Earther trying to explain FET/Zeteticism to another Round Earther? You'd think you would have left it to someone who actually knows what they're talking about if you cared so much about truth over starting with a premise and saying whatever it takes to confirm it. ::)

That said, eclipses are cyclical. You can predict future eclipses by following the well-known and documented pattern. This is true for both FET and RET.
So using your FE model can you tell me the date of the next solar eclipse after 2017, where it will be seen at full eclipse, and the times of full eclipse at those locations?   Has the FES been making any predictions or just using the data that is being generated by the spherical scientists?

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Offline SexWarrior

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2017, 06:21:01 PM »
Has the FES been making any predictions or just using the data that is being generated by the spherical scientists?
The data would be precisely identical. What would be the point of hiring someone (and where would we get the funding?) to replicate someone else's work? There's plenty of more useful things we could be doing.
<Parsifal> Jesus Christ
<Parsifal> Do I really have to write 6000-word sentences just to remove all ambiguity from everything I'm saying?

Where live, do the offer adult reading classes?

Offline Flatout

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2017, 08:26:18 PM »
Has the FES been making any predictions or just using the data that is being generated by the spherical scientists?
The data would be precisely identical. What would be the point of hiring someone (and where would we get the funding?) to replicate someone else's work? There's plenty of more useful things we could be doing.
Gotcha, so you are confortable trusting the  heliocentric spherical model's ability to predict astronomical events.

So if the predictive nature of the two models is identical then what is the FES explanation of solar eclipses?   It can still be used to predict things right?    The only thing I can find is the existence of some dark object that blocks the moon during Lunar eclipses.   

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Offline Venus

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2017, 12:33:33 AM »
I don't understand - why is a Round Earther trying to explain FET/Zeteticism to another Round Earther? You'd think you would have left it to someone who actually knows what they're talking about if you cared so much about truth over starting with a premise and saying whatever it takes to confirm it. ::)

That said, eclipses are cyclical. You can predict future eclipses by following the well-known and documented pattern. This is true for both FET and RET.

Here is the information available online for the total eclipse of August 21 2017 https://www.greatamericaneclipse.com/best-places-to-view/

Scroll down and look at how much information is provided for every state that will experience the eclipse ...
Every location ... when totality will start, how long totality will last ... to the EXACT second !!! How is that worked out on a flat earth?

Here is how NASA calculated this data http://newatlas.com/total-solar-eclipse-path-usa-nasa/47297/

MUCH more complex than "oh we had one in 1897 they occur every 120 years over USA" !!

Because solar eclipses can be predicted perfectly based on our knowledge of the movement of the earth and moon around the sun !!
Because I live on the 'bottom' of a spinning spherical earth ...
*I cannot see Polaris, but I can see the Southern Cross
*When I look at the stars they appear to rotate clockwise, not anti-clockwise
*I see the moon 'upside down'
I've travelled to the Northern Hemisphere numerous times ... and seen how different the stars and the moon are 'up' there!
Come on down and check it out FE believers... !!

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Offline Venus

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2017, 12:46:08 AM »
Has the FES been making any predictions or just using the data that is being generated by the spherical scientists?
The data would be precisely identical. What would be the point of hiring someone (and where would we get the funding?) to replicate someone else's work? There's plenty of more useful things we could be doing.

NO! NO!! NO!!! The data would NOT be identical !!!! The data would NOT be PRECISELY identical !!!!!
NASA calculates solar eclipse information based on a spherical earth, with the moon revolving around it, in a heliocentric solar system !!!

Quote
Predictions for the Total Solar Eclipse of 2017 Aug 21 were generated using the JPL DE405 solar and lunar ephemerides and a value of ΔT = 68.4 seconds.
The eclipse predictions presented here DO NOT include the effects of mountains and valleys along the edge of the Moon. Such corrections for the lunar limb profile may shift the limits of the eclipse path north or south by ~1-3 kilometers, and change the eclipse duration by ~1-3 seconds. More detailed predictions including the effects of the lunar limb profile are normally posted 12-18 months before each eclipse

NASA's calculations would NOT work if the earth was flat and at the centre of the solar system, or if we were in a dome !!
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 12:52:04 AM by Venus »
Because I live on the 'bottom' of a spinning spherical earth ...
*I cannot see Polaris, but I can see the Southern Cross
*When I look at the stars they appear to rotate clockwise, not anti-clockwise
*I see the moon 'upside down'
I've travelled to the Northern Hemisphere numerous times ... and seen how different the stars and the moon are 'up' there!
Come on down and check it out FE believers... !!

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Offline Woody

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2017, 11:45:56 AM »
I don't understand - why is a Round Earther trying to explain FET/Zeteticism to another Round Earther? You'd think you would have left it to someone who actually knows what they're talking about if you cared so much about truth over starting with a premise and saying whatever it takes to confirm it. ::)

That said, eclipses are cyclical. You can predict future eclipses by following the well-known and documented pattern. This is true for both FET and RET.

Except that that cycle can not be used to predict exactly when and where an solar eclipse will be visible.  Just that it is likely to happen and be visible somewhere.

It is more reliable for lunar eclipses which have been predicted with various amounts of success by different civilizations since antiquity.

It was not until the 18th century when solar eclipses were reliably and accurately predicted. Not only when they would happen, but where they would be observable.  The bad news for FE is the ability to predict solar eclipses reliably and accurately does not just involve keeping track of the last times they happened.  It involves assuming the Moon orbits a spherical Earth which is orbiting the Sun.

You can not just use the Saros Cycle to reliably and accurately predict solar eclipses.  You can use it to determine when it will likely happen.  You also can not use it to reliably and accurately predict if it will be a partial of total eclipse.

Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2017, 03:51:04 PM »
So the heliocentrist spherical earth scientists are predicting a solar eclipse on August 21st in 2017.  They have calculated the locations across the world where a full eclipse will be visible and the timing in those locations down to the second.   How can they do this?  Can the flat earth scientists predict an event like this?   Are the scientists who are making these predictions really just flat earth scientists who are really smart?  What is the FES explanation for solar eclipses?

I searched the wiki but couldn't find anything about solar eclipses.

Solar eclipses have been predictable long before anyone thought the Earth was a globe. Ever heard of the Mayans?

Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2017, 07:01:50 PM »
So the heliocentrist spherical earth scientists are predicting a solar eclipse on August 21st in 2017.  They have calculated the locations across the world where a full eclipse will be visible and the timing in those locations down to the second.   How can they do this?  Can the flat earth scientists predict an event like this?   Are the scientists who are making these predictions really just flat earth scientists who are really smart?  What is the FES explanation for solar eclipses?

I searched the wiki but couldn't find anything about solar eclipses.

Solar eclipses have been predictable long before anyone thought the Earth was a globe. Ever heard of the Mayans?

The Mayans did. But has The Flat Earth Society ?
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2017, 07:27:08 PM »
So the heliocentrist spherical earth scientists are predicting a solar eclipse on August 21st in 2017.  They have calculated the locations across the world where a full eclipse will be visible and the timing in those locations down to the second.   How can they do this?  Can the flat earth scientists predict an event like this?   Are the scientists who are making these predictions really just flat earth scientists who are really smart?  What is the FES explanation for solar eclipses?

I searched the wiki but couldn't find anything about solar eclipses.

Solar eclipses have been predictable long before anyone thought the Earth was a globe. Ever heard of the Mayans?

The Mayans did. But has The Flat Earth Society ?

Why would they have to? I just gave you a direct example of how a society that believed in a flat earth was able to. The post infers that it isn't possible without accounting for heliocentricity. That was proven wrong. What else you got?

Offline Flatout

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2017, 04:43:17 AM »
No one is asking about the Mayans.  I've been asking the FES what you all have and what your model can predict.  I still haven't received an explanation of how a solar eclipse happens on the FE model.   

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Offline Woody

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2017, 05:41:34 AM »
So the heliocentrist spherical earth scientists are predicting a solar eclipse on August 21st in 2017.  They have calculated the locations across the world where a full eclipse will be visible and the timing in those locations down to the second.   How can they do this?  Can the flat earth scientists predict an event like this?   Are the scientists who are making these predictions really just flat earth scientists who are really smart?  What is the FES explanation for solar eclipses?

I searched the wiki but couldn't find anything about solar eclipses.

Solar eclipses have been predictable long before anyone thought the Earth was a globe. Ever heard of the Mayans?

I'll try again.

Were they reliably predicted?  Meaning they where able to get it right every time.  They knew exactly when and where they would be visible?  They knew if it was going to be full or partial?

That was not done successfully until the 1700's. It was the result of the work of three mathematicians who used a heliocentric RE model.

I think you are confused about what eclipses they were able to predict got right most times and wrong some times. Lunar eclipses and even then they where only able to predict when they were most likely to happen.  They had a good success rate with lunar eclipses as did other civilizations. 

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2017, 08:57:41 AM »
Why would they have to? I just gave you a direct example of how a society that believed in a flat earth was able to. The post infers that it isn't possible without accounting for heliocentricity. That was proven wrong. What else you got?
No, you have given no evidence, other than TheTruthIsOnHere said. Not the same at all!

Now, I know that many old astronomers did amazing work with the equipment and knowledge they had, but the results were not all that accurate.
Quote from: Harvey and Victoria Bricker
In fact, the Brickers found the astronomical calendar dated to the 11th or 12th century accurately predicted a solar eclipse to within a day in 1991, centuries after the Mayan civilization had ended. The 1991 eclipse occurred on July 11.

From Ancient Maya Predicted 1991 Solar Eclipse.

Quote
Ancient Chinese astrologers, by 2300 BC, already had sophisticated observatory buildings and as early as 2650 BC, Li Shu was writing about astronomy. Observing total solar eclipses was a major element of forecasting the future health and successes of the Emperor, and astrologers were left with the onerous task of trying to anticipate when these events might occur. Failure to get the prediction right, in at least one recorded instance in 2300 BC resulted in the beheading of two astrologers. Since the pattern of total solar eclipses is a very erratic one in time at a specific geographic location, many astrologers no doubt lost their heads. By about 20 BC, surviving documents show that Chinese astrologers understood what caused eclipses, and by 8 BC some predictions of total solar eclipse were made using the 135-month reoccurrence period. By 206 AD they could predict solar eclipses by analyzing the motion of the moon itself.

Did ancient peoples really predict solar eclipses?

 :'( A Chinese Astrologer had a rather hazardous occupation.  :'(

So if the TFES is to match NASA (not just NASA, but astronomers in general) they need to do better than thw Mayans or Chinese.
Predicting the time is one thing, but working the location with precision is a different story. Not only that but the motions of the Sun, moon and Earth are not precisely periodic, nor even perfectly calculable very far into the future. This is probable the reason the Mayan prediction was a day out.

Re: August 21, 2017 Solar Eclipse
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2017, 04:38:55 PM »
Not only that but the motions of the Sun, moon and Earth are not precisely periodic, nor even perfectly calculable very far into the future. This is probable the reason the Mayan prediction was a day out.

Why not? Doesn't the heliocentric model have the answer for everything? Isn't it known fact, sound science, absolute truth? It should be able to predict every motion in the solar system because it is the perfect representation of reality, right?