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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #60 on: May 08, 2016, 09:28:41 PM »
Considering you have treated this problem as a classical problem, then tried to work in SR where it served you, I am not sure why you think you can be on a high horse.

I understand relativistic effects and I consulted a couple of astronomers regarding the principles in the discussion. Hence my ability to reason through this problem. If you decide to concede the argument that is fine, thanks for your time.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 09:31:44 PM by Rama Set »
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #61 on: May 08, 2016, 09:48:40 PM »
Considering you have treated this problem as a classical problem, then tried to work in SR where it served you, I am not sure why you think you can be on a high horse.

I understand relativistic effects and I consulted a couple of astronomers regarding the principles in the discussion. Hence my ability to reason through this problem. If you decide to concede the argument that is fine, thanks for your time.

Ok, clearly you are simply trolling and attempting to obfuscate - and note you have not once bothered to calculate, quantify, or provide any source for your claims.

Please read the rules, particularly where it states "If you have run out of valid contributions, simply do not post."

I am also asking you to stop posting in this thread. "If another member makes it clear to you that your behaviour toward them is making them uncomfortable, take that as a signal to back off. If you continue to harass that member after being made aware of this fact, you may be officially warned by forum staff."

To return to the subject, the LLR is a proven LIE and HOAX because the incident light returned by a corner cube array will be ~75 km off from the location it was emitted from 2.5 seconds earlier because earth's orbital velocity is 30 km per second.



The absence of any meaningful criticism relating to this point is an excellent indicator that the LLR experiment is indeed a total LIE and HOAX.

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2016, 10:14:37 PM »
You haven't sourced any of your claims either, so not sure what your issue is. I have meaningfully criticized your assertion and you are taking your ignorance regarding SR as my failing. This will not work out in the long run for you. When on the Earth you treat the Earth as unmoving for the purposes of which frame to prefer. Therefore, when on Earth, the laser pulse ignores it's orbital velocity.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2016, 12:36:31 AM »
Sources are the overwhelmingly obvious parameters of the heliocentric model. Its unfortunate you are not capable of making sense out of it, and must lie to try and cover up the truth. I'm sure you find that to be very frustrating, but I cannot do anything to fix your problems.

You have to figure it out on your own. Good luck.

Maybe this will help you: How to Think
http://www.wikihow.com/Think

Earth's orbital velocity is 30 km per second.
http://nssdc.gsfc.nasa.gov/planetary/factsheet/earthfact.html
https://www.google.com/search?q=Earth+orbital+velocity&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

LLR details are in the PDF previously linked
http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf

Lunar retroreflectors - Corner cube prisms only send light back in the exact direction it came from
http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html

Motion of emitter or detector causes Doppler shift in frequency (wavelength) but never changes the path or velocity of light (of course if you actually understood relativity or Lorentz invariance you would know this)
http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/light/doppler.html
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 12:43:42 AM by Setec Astronomy »

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2016, 01:42:11 AM »
More Ad Homs; sorry you are so frustrated. Please tell me what I have mentioned that indicates Lorentz variance to you.

I will make this simpler. In the case we are discussing, the Earth is an inertial reference frame. In that FOR, light will travel in a straight line. From a different FOR, where the Earth is non-inertial, then that light pulse will no longer travel in a straight line as it will appear to be under a fictitious force.

If you cannot address this, then you have nothing to add to the conversation.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #65 on: May 09, 2016, 02:07:51 AM »
The earth is a non-inertial reference frame.
the Earth is an inertial reference frame

Nonsense. A rotating, revolving earth is a non-inertial reference frame. Any reference frame in which the earth is regarded as "fixed" is non-inertial. You fail at even understanding what an inertial reference frame is.

If you are to be taken at all seriously, you have to come up with a specific objection to one of the relevant facts (according to heliocentrism and LLR experiment) that result in the LLR experiment being totally impossible. These facts are:

1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second
2. Laser is aimed, at an offset (to account for motion during light-speed delay), at corner cube prism array.
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between earth and moon.
4. Corner cube prisms on the moon return light back in exactly the same direction it came from.

From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the spot light is returned to ~2.5 seconds later will miss the telescope and detector by ~75 km due to the earth's movement along it's orbital path during the roundtrip light time.



Whether you only pretend to not understand this, or are genuinely incapable of understanding it, is irrelevant. If all you can do is troll and mock the truth, there is honestly no point in regarding you as anything more than an idiot. That's not an attack, it is a simple statement of fact.

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #66 on: May 09, 2016, 02:28:48 AM »
The earth is a non-inertial reference frame.
the Earth is an inertial reference frame

Nonsense. A rotating, revolving earth is a non-inertial reference frame. Any reference frame in which the earth is regarded as "fixed" is non-inertial. You fail at even understanding what an inertial reference frame is.

I always mix up those terms. Regardless my position is clear and you still have not addressed it. Semantics do not dismiss it.

Quote
If you are to be taken at all seriously, you have to come up with a specific objection to one of the relevant facts (according to heliocentrism and LLR experiment) that result in the LLR experiment being totally impossible. These facts are:

1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second
2. Laser is aimed, at an offset (to account for motion during light-speed delay), at corner cube prism array.
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between earth and moon.
4. Corner cube prisms on the moon return light back in exactly the same direction it came from.

I do not disagree with any of these points.

Quote
From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the spot light is returned to ~2.5 seconds later will miss the telescope and detector by ~75 km due to the earth's movement along it's orbital path during the roundtrip light time.

Incorrect. Light will travel in a straight line, from the perspective of the observer on Earth.

Quote
Whether you only pretend to not understand this, or are genuinely incapable of understanding it, is irrelevant. If all you can do is troll and mock the truth, there is honestly no point in regarding you as anything more than an idiot. That's not an attack, it is a simple statement of fact.

You are welcome to your opinion. It does not change the fact that you are wrong. Anyway, I had my claims confirmed by a professor of Astrophysics at a UK university. I am not going to say any more than that because I do not have his permission to post his identity on a public forum. I was in touch with him via stackexchange.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #67 on: May 09, 2016, 03:44:31 AM »
It does not change the fact that you are wrong. Anyway, I had my claims confirmed by a professor of Astrophysics at a UK university. I am not going to say any more than that because I do not have his permission to post his identity on a public forum. I was in touch with him via stackexchange.

You should post his name because he is LYING and should be exposed rather than you acting as his mouthpiece.

With regards to moving reference frames and light. Look up what a light-clock is, you'll notice it uses a MIRROR.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_clock
Can you work out what happens if the mirror is replaced with a RETRO-REFLECTOR, such as is said to be on the moon?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 03:46:28 AM by Setec Astronomy »

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #68 on: May 09, 2016, 12:30:25 PM »
It does not change the fact that you are wrong. Anyway, I had my claims confirmed by a professor of Astrophysics at a UK university. I am not going to say any more than that because I do not have his permission to post his identity on a public forum. I was in touch with him via stackexchange.

You should post his name because he is LYING and should be exposed rather than you acting as his mouthpiece.

Right. You make such a compelling reason to do so.

Quote
With regards to moving reference frames and light. Look up what a light-clock is, you'll notice it uses a MIRROR.
https://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_clock
Can you work out what happens if the mirror is replaced with a RETRO-REFLECTOR, such as is said to be on the moon?

Did you know that light only travel in straight lines and at a constant velocity in an inertial reference frame?  Remember the Earth isn't?

I thought you weren't going to bother with me anymore? 
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2016, 07:30:05 PM »

Did you know that light only travel in straight lines and at a constant velocity in an inertial reference frame?  Remember the Earth isn't?
Remember that you are the one who claims it is, and I had to correct you that, according to Heiiocentric model, it isn't?

Here, I will remind you since you can't even seem to tell the truth about your own previous words:

I will make this simpler. In the case we are discussing, the Earth is an inertial reference frame. In that FOR, light will travel in a straight line.
And..
Light will travel in a straight line, from the perspective of the observer on Earth.

Those are your words, not mine. Since you are now saying that what you have said is false, while trying to pretend it was me who said your words, you are basically a pathological liar with nothing to say worth listening to.

Quote
I thought you weren't going to bother with me anymore?
As long as you keep posting in my thread and telling lies, I am going to reiterate what is true.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2016, 08:14:34 PM by Setec Astronomy »

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2016, 09:17:09 PM »

Did you know that light only travel in straight lines and at a constant velocity in an inertial reference frame?  Remember the Earth isn't?
Remember that you are the one who claims it is, and I had to correct you that, according to Heiiocentric model, it isn't?

Here, I will remind you since you can't even seem to tell the truth about your own previous words:

I will make this simpler. In the case we are discussing, the Earth is an inertial reference frame. In that FOR, light will travel in a straight line.

The reference to an inertial reference frame was an admitted mistake.  Don't quote mine, its bad form.

Quote
And..
Light will travel in a straight line, from the perspective of the observer on Earth.

The statement I made does not mean that every light beam in a non-inertial reference frame necessarily does not travel in a straight line.  Also, light can appear to travel in a straight line in one FOR (i.e. an observer on Earth) and in a curved line to another (i.e. an observer on Venus).

Quote
Those are your words, not mine. Since you are now saying that what you have said is false, while trying to pretend it was me who said your words, you are basically a pathological liar with nothing to say worth listening to.

Pathological liar?  Hmmm...

Quote
Quote
I thought you weren't going to bother with me anymore?
As long as you keep posting in my thread and telling lies, I am going to reiterate what is true.

I am waiting for the first iteration.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2016, 11:26:36 PM »
Rama Set, you don't have any idea what you're talking about. It has been proven you don't know what you're talking about. You are a liar and have been obsessively commenting on my thread for days despite not having anything meaningful to add to the discussion, but only lies and obfuscation. You show no signs of being able to engage in intelligent discussion because you constantly change your story, have no sources at all to back anything you say, other than telling lies that some un-named entity elsewhere on the Internet, who you say is a UK astronomer, somehow agrees with you - despite your now admitting that the basis for your original "objections", which said astronomer corroborated, were actually completely without merit.

Anyone with a working brain who reads your "contributions" to this thread will come to the same conclusion.

Sorry, but I cannot "argue" with someone whose demeanor is that of an unresponsive troll who cannot engage in logical conversation. At this point I'm no longer reading your comments and will only reiterate the following facts whenever you reply: (note: this is a clear signal that you, "Rama Set", need to stop obsessing over and posting replies to this thread)

ACCORDING TO HELIOCENTRIC THEORY and the LUNAR LASER RANGING EXPERIMENT:
1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second. https://www.google.com/#q=earth+orbital+velocity
2. Laser is aimed toward the lunar retro-reflector at an offset to account for motion during the time it takes light to traverse the distance. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between the laser on earth and the retro-reflector on the moon. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
4. The retro-reflector is composed of corner cube prisms that return light back in exactly the same direction from which it came. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html

From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the laser light returned by the retro-reflector ~2.5 seconds later will be centered on where the laser was when the light was emitted - BUT this location will be ~75 km away from the current position of the laser/detector apparatus because the earth will have moved 2.5 * 30 km in the time it takes light to make the round-trip. Because the return beam is claimed to have a 10 km radius the telescope and detector will be at least 65 km outside of the area the light returns to, and, hence, be impossible for the experiment to ever work.

Animation to illustrate the motions involved. (note: this is for illustrative purposes and is not to scale)

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2016, 11:46:02 PM »
All you have to do is look me up on stack exchange to see the conversations I had. Astronomers and physicists do not agree with your position. They support the conclusion I eventually came to, with some missteps along the way.

I encourage you to learn about relativity a little more as I endeavored to through the course of this thread, which I have you to thank for. You will eventually understand that your assessment of the LLR is incorrect, I hope.

Good luck and try to stay away from insulting other people when you disagree with them. It is bad form.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2016, 11:54:34 PM »
Sorry, but I cannot "argue" with someone whose demeanor is that of an unresponsive troll who cannot engage in logical conversation. At this point I'm no longer reading replies made by "Rama Set" and will only reiterate the following facts whenever he does reply: (note: this is a clear signal that you, "Rama Set", need to stop obsessing over and posting replies to this thread)

ACCORDING TO HELIOCENTRIC THEORY and the LUNAR LASER RANGING EXPERIMENT:
1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second. https://www.google.com/#q=earth+orbital+velocity
2. Laser is aimed toward the lunar retro-reflector at an offset to account for motion during the time it takes light to traverse the distance. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between the laser on earth and the retro-reflector on the moon. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
4. The retro-reflector is composed of corner cube prisms that return light back in exactly the same direction from which it came. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html

From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the laser light returned by the retro-reflector ~2.5 seconds later will be centered on where the laser was when the light was emitted - BUT this location will be ~75 km away from the current position of the laser/detector apparatus because the earth will have moved 2.5 * 30 km in the time it takes light to make the round-trip. Because the return beam is claimed to have a 10 km radius the telescope and detector will be at least 65 km outside of the area the light returns to, and, hence, be impossible for the experiment to ever work.

Animation to illustrate the motions involved. (note: this is for illustrative purposes and is not to scale)

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #74 on: May 10, 2016, 04:24:28 AM »
I suppose he won't want to read up url=http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/96503/does-the-velocity-of-a-light-source-influence-the-light]a brief discussion[/url] that elucidates how his assertion about light traveling only in straight lines wrt some mythical reference frame that does not exist, is just plain wrong.

The path taken by a laser pulse emitted from the Earth towards the moon would appear straight for all intents and purposes, because none of the accelerations that the Earth experiences are of a particularly high magnitude.

Of course, Setec Astronomy, won't respond to that, he will likely just copy and paste his previous post.

FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #75 on: May 10, 2016, 05:07:48 AM »
Sorry, but I cannot "argue" with someone whose demeanor is that of an unresponsive troll who cannot engage in logical conversation. At this point I'm no longer reading replies made by "Rama Set" and will only reiterate the following facts whenever he does reply: (note: this is a clear signal that you, "Rama Set", need to stop obsessing over and posting replies to this thread)

ACCORDING TO HELIOCENTRIC THEORY and the LUNAR LASER RANGING EXPERIMENT:
1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second. https://www.google.com/#q=earth+orbital+velocity
2. Laser is aimed toward the lunar retro-reflector at an offset to account for motion during the time it takes light to traverse the distance. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between the laser on earth and the retro-reflector on the moon. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
4. The retro-reflector is composed of corner cube prisms that return light back in exactly the same direction from which it came. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html

From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the laser light returned by the retro-reflector ~2.5 seconds later will be centered on where the laser was when the light was emitted - BUT this location will be ~75 km away from the current position of the laser/detector apparatus because the earth will have moved 2.5 * 30 km in the time it takes light to make the round-trip. Because the return beam is claimed to have a 10 km radius the telescope and detector will be at least 65 km outside of the area the light returns to, and, hence, be impossible for the experiment to ever work.

Animation to illustrate the motions involved. (note: this is for illustrative purposes and is not to scale)

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #76 on: May 10, 2016, 05:16:14 AM »
I was exactly right.  Anyway, it seems clear to me at least, as I have gone through the material in this thread, that Setec has created some sort of blend of Special Relativity and Galilean Relativity to suit his needs.  Hopefully he will poke around a bit more about what SR really says about light paths, instead of spamming the same comment again.  Anyone else have anything to add?
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #77 on: May 10, 2016, 05:22:01 AM »
Sorry, but I cannot "argue" with someone whose demeanor is that of an unresponsive troll who cannot engage in logical conversation. At this point I'm no longer reading replies made by "Rama Set" and will only reiterate the following facts whenever he does reply: (note: this is a clear signal that you, "Rama Set", need to stop obsessing over and posting replies to this thread) The number of replies "Rama Set" has made to this thread AFTER receiving this notice reveals the absurd extent of his perseveration dysfunction. Clearly he is in need of medication.

ACCORDING TO HELIOCENTRIC THEORY and the LUNAR LASER RANGING EXPERIMENT:
1. Earth is orbiting around the sun at ~30 km per second. https://www.google.com/#q=earth+orbital+velocity
2. Laser is aimed toward the lunar retro-reflector at an offset to account for motion during the time it takes light to traverse the distance. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
3. Light takes ~1.25 seconds to traverse the distance between the laser on earth and the retro-reflector on the moon. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf
4. The retro-reflector is composed of corner cube prisms that return light back in exactly the same direction from which it came. http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html

From these facts the unavoidable conclusion is that the laser light returned by the retro-reflector ~2.5 seconds later will be centered on where the laser was when the light was emitted - BUT this location will be ~75 km away from the current position of the laser/detector apparatus because the earth will have moved 2.5 * 30 km in the time it takes light to make the round-trip. Because the return beam is claimed to have a 10 km radius the telescope and detector will be at least 65 km outside of the area the light returns to, and, hence, be impossible for the experiment to ever work.

Animation to illustrate the motions involved. (note: this is for illustrative purposes and is not to scale)

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #78 on: May 10, 2016, 05:46:07 AM »
Seeing as how I've received a "warning" from TFES for spamming my own thread, I am pretty sure "Rama Set" is an alt of the guy with the squid hat.

What else does anyone honestly expect when the rules actively encourage deception by freely allowing alt accounts.

I'm not making any more replies to this thread, nor wasting any more time on this absord controlled opposition forum full of satan worshippers bound for the Pit. It's coming much sooner than you fools think. For those of you with a brain, you've seen the truth. For the rest, enjoy the eternal torment of the company of your father the devil.

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #79 on: May 10, 2016, 06:24:03 AM »
Seeing as how I've received a "warning" from TFES for spamming my own thread, I am pretty sure "Rama Set" is an alt of the guy with the squid hat.

What else does anyone honestly expect when the rules actively encourage deception by freely allowing alt accounts.

I'm not making any more replies to this thread, nor wasting any more time on this absord controlled opposition forum full of satan worshippers bound for the Pit. It's coming much sooner than you fools think. For those of you with a brain, you've seen the truth. For the rest, enjoy the eternal torment of the company of your father the devil.
I want to thank you personally for showing all of us how darwin was right about evolution.
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