Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #40 on: May 06, 2016, 06:27:06 PM »
But seriously, you just proved CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays don't work.
So, how do they work, if not by laser?
No, what was proved is the LLR cannot possibly work given the the scientific model of earth's motion.

CD's DO work, and they DO work by laser. You can buy one and operate it yourself (unlike an LLR experiment). What is going to be proved by this is something much bigger - that the modern scientific model of the Solar system, the motion of the earth, etc, must be wrong.

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2016, 06:37:10 PM »
Quote

Did you ever bother to check the angle of the reflector relative to earth?

Will you bother to understand that your question is irrelevant because the retroreflector is a corner cube array made to reflect a ray of light back at the exact same angle it entered the array?

http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/lrrr.html
Retroreflectors, or corner-cube prisms, are optical devices that return any incident light back in exactly the direction from which it came.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 06:38:41 PM by Setec Astronomy »

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #42 on: May 06, 2016, 08:26:30 PM »


This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/



Did you ever bother to check the angle of the reflector relative to earth? This is the third time I've asked you, and is pretty freaking relevant.

You assume the pulse is reflected in a tangent angle. It's not.
It is.  The cubes have a 180 degree reflection.

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #43 on: May 06, 2016, 08:28:24 PM »
But seriously, you just proved CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays don't work.
So, how do they work, if not by laser?
No, what was proved is the LLR cannot possibly work given the the scientific model of earth's motion.

CD's DO work, and they DO work by laser. You can buy one and operate it yourself (unlike an LLR experiment). What is going to be proved by this is something much bigger - that the modern scientific model of the Solar system, the motion of the earth, etc, must be wrong.

No, it can't.
Do the math.  1 mm laser travel with the Earth's movement would make the laser hit several nanometers off from target, thus causing the reflection to be incorrect.  It can't work.

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #44 on: May 06, 2016, 09:17:27 PM »
But seriously, you just proved CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays don't work.
So, how do they work, if not by laser?
No, what was proved is the LLR cannot possibly work given the the scientific model of earth's motion.

CD's DO work, and they DO work by laser. You can buy one and operate it yourself (unlike an LLR experiment). What is going to be proved by this is something much bigger - that the modern scientific model of the Solar system, the motion of the earth, etc, must be wrong.

No, it can't.
Do the math.  1 mm laser travel with the Earth's movement would make the laser hit several nanometers off from target, thus causing the reflection to be incorrect.  It can't work.

What can't work is the LIES we are told about the LLR and Earth orbiting around the sun.

This is essentially what I wrote above and you even quoted it, but seem intent on ignoring it. What you're experiencing is called "cognitive dissonance" because what you've always believed about the earth, solar system, and universe is wrong and at some level you might be beginning to realize it.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2016, 09:32:12 PM by Setec Astronomy »

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #45 on: May 06, 2016, 10:09:45 PM »
But seriously, you just proved CDs, DVDs, and blu-rays don't work.
So, how do they work, if not by laser?
No, what was proved is the LLR cannot possibly work given the the scientific model of earth's motion.

CD's DO work, and they DO work by laser. You can buy one and operate it yourself (unlike an LLR experiment). What is going to be proved by this is something much bigger - that the modern scientific model of the Solar system, the motion of the earth, etc, must be wrong.

No, it can't.
Do the math.  1 mm laser travel with the Earth's movement would make the laser hit several nanometers off from target, thus causing the reflection to be incorrect.  It can't work.

What can't work is the LIES we are told about the LLR and Earth orbiting around the sun.

This is essentially what I wrote above and you even quoted it, but seem intent on ignoring it. What you're experiencing is called "cognitive dissonance" because what you've always believed about the earth, solar system, and universe is wrong and at some level you might be beginning to realize it.

Why is this so difficult to grasp?  Do the same math with a laser on a CD player that you did on the moon.  Go on.  I mean, how can one laser work but another doesn't?  It doesn't make sense!

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #46 on: May 06, 2016, 11:07:46 PM »
Why is this so difficult to grasp?  Do the same math with a laser on a CD player that you did on the moon.  Go on.  I mean, how can one laser work but another doesn't?  It doesn't make sense!
For the THIRD TIME, the fact that CD's, DVD's, and Blu-Ray players work is evidence that the earth is not in motion at 30 km per second as we are told. This is precisely because the math would indicate they could not work IF you continue to assume the heliocentric model is correct. That they do reliably function serves to falsify the heliocentric model - unless you know of a workable model for electromagnetism that would allow these devices to operate in a reference frame moving at 30 km per second (hint: there isn't one).

Please leave this thread if you're simply going to perseverate and sidestep the point, which is that the assumptions of the heliocentric model are provably false.

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #47 on: May 07, 2016, 06:06:02 AM »
Why is this so difficult to grasp?  Do the same math with a laser on a CD player that you did on the moon.  Go on.  I mean, how can one laser work but another doesn't?  It doesn't make sense!
For the THIRD TIME, the fact that CD's, DVD's, and Blu-Ray players work is evidence that the earth is not in motion at 30 km per second as we are told. This is precisely because the math would indicate they could not work IF you continue to assume the heliocentric model is correct. That they do reliably function serves to falsify the heliocentric model - unless you know of a workable model for electromagnetism that would allow these devices to operate in a reference frame moving at 30 km per second (hint: there isn't one).

Please leave this thread if you're simply going to perseverate and sidestep the point, which is that the assumptions of the heliocentric model are provably false.

....
So now the Earth isn't moving?
You... You just spent a week explaining that the llre doesn't work because the earth is moving.  Now you say it isn't?
So if the Earth isn't moving at 30km/s then the LLRE works.
If it is, then it won't.

So which is it?

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #48 on: May 07, 2016, 08:55:43 AM »
So now the Earth isn't moving?
You... You just spent a week explaining that the llre doesn't work because the earth is moving.  Now you say it isn't?
So if the Earth isn't moving at 30km/s then the LLRE works.
If it is, then it won't.

So which is it?
It is neither - LLR is a LIE and a HOAX (please see thread title). It is its own internal inconsistencies which reveal it to be a Lie and a Hoax.

LLR claims to work within and validate to high precision specific parameters of the heliocentric solar system model.

I have been showing you that the details of the heliocentric model - IF we assume they are completely true - actually make the LLR experiment an absolute impossibility - ergo, a Lie and a Hoax.

If those heliocentric details are Not true, that also makes LLR a Lie and a Hoax (because it claims they are true).

The reason it is paradoxical and doesn't make sense is because LLR is a lie that fits within the tangled web of heliocentrism, space travel, and the Moon Landing (which LLR is used as "proof" of). The whole thing is a evil Fallen system of lies and deception.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2016, 08:58:45 AM by Setec Astronomy »

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #49 on: May 07, 2016, 07:45:11 PM »
So after looking in to the matter, I learned that the orbital velocity of the Earth is irrelevant. It may matter for a body outside of the Earth-Moon system but this motion is undetectable within the Earth-Moon FOR.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #50 on: May 07, 2016, 08:06:07 PM »
So after looking in to the matter, I learned that the orbital velocity of the Earth is irrelevant. It may matter for a body outside of the Earth-Moon system but this motion is undetectable within the Earth-Moon FOR.

It is?
So light just keeps going as though the Earth isn't going around the sun or moving through the galaxy?

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #51 on: May 07, 2016, 08:10:35 PM »
So after looking in to the matter, I learned that the orbital velocity of the Earth is irrelevant. It may matter for a body outside of the Earth-Moon system but this motion is undetectable within the Earth-Moon FOR.
I'd love to know who's feeding you these lies, because both bodies are said to be in orbital motion but light will travel in a straight line. From the moon's POV, the earth is at position A with respect to the background stars when the laser pulse hits the retroreflector, and it is sent back in exactly that same direction, but when the light finally returns to position A 2.5 seconds later, the location on the earth the light came from is no longer there, but at least 75 km distant.

There is absolutely no way around this positional change if we are to believe the heliocentric model is correct.

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #52 on: May 07, 2016, 11:11:50 PM »


This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/



Did you ever bother to check the angle of the reflector relative to earth? This is the third time I've asked you, and is pretty freaking relevant.

You assume the pulse is reflected in a tangent angle. It's not.

What is the angle then? And please tell my why exactly Apollo astronauts put the mirror there, and do you think they had the tools necessary to place the mirror at the exact angle necessary to overcome the incredible amount of variables to make it useful?

They certainly didn't put it there to see how far away the moon is, apparently we already knew that before the missions somehow since we went there a few times successfully.

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #53 on: May 08, 2016, 12:03:48 AM »


This also makes the laser in your CD player impossible to play CDs.  The 1 mm space between the lens and the disk plus the movement of the Earth means everything is off by a few nano meters.  And, well, that's just too much.
It's too much because it threatens too many of the lies we've all been led to believe are true.
This is about the lunar distance which we are told is about 370,000 kilometers away. The earth has an orbital velocity of ~30 km per second which means the return signal ~2.5 seconds later will be off by at least 75 km.

If you are afraid of the implications of this fact, that is another problem entirely/



Did you ever bother to check the angle of the reflector relative to earth? This is the third time I've asked you, and is pretty freaking relevant.

You assume the pulse is reflected in a tangent angle. It's not.

What is the angle then? And please tell my why exactly Apollo astronauts put the mirror there, and do you think they had the tools necessary to place the mirror at the exact angle necessary to overcome the incredible amount of variables to make it useful?

For what it's worth, it is said the corner cube array is oriented "approximately" towards earth, however due to variables such as libration it has a typical misalignment of 7 degrees
(see http://physics.ucsd.edu/~tmurphy/apollo/0710.0890v2.pdf section 1.3)

The only effect retro-reflector misalignment will have is a reduction in its efficiency at collecting and returning incoming light - which, since it is reflecting off corner cube prisms, as opposed to a mirror plane, is only sent back in the exact same direction it came from, towards a spot the detector has moved some 75 km away from in the interim 2.5 seconds since it was emitted.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 12:08:24 AM by Setec Astronomy »

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #54 on: May 08, 2016, 05:05:09 PM »
So after looking in to the matter, I learned that the orbital velocity of the Earth is irrelevant. It may matter for a body outside of the Earth-Moon system but this motion is undetectable within the Earth-Moon FOR.

It is?
So light just keeps going as though the Earth isn't going around the sun or moving through the galaxy?

From an observer stationary relative to the Earth-Moon they would see light travel in a straight line, that is, proceed directly to the retroreflector and be reflected straight back. To do otherwise would be to impart a tangential velocity of 30km/s to the light which, as pointed out by Setec, is in violation of SR.

Someone with motion relative to the Earth orbit around the sun, would have a different perception of the light path. I am incapable of calculating this because of would require various Lorentz transformation, Lorentz contractions and time dilation to be applied.

It is not a simple problem to say the least.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #55 on: May 08, 2016, 06:17:49 PM »
From an observer stationary relative to the Earth-Moon they would see light travel in a straight line, that is, proceed directly to the retroreflector and be reflected straight back. To do otherwise would be to impart a tangential velocity of 30km/s to the light which, as pointed out by Setec, is in violation of SR.
You are explaining it completely wrong. Why do you think they claim to aim the laser ahead of the target on the moon in the first place?

The background stars are moving, which the heliocentric model explains as being due to the earth moving - both rotating around its axis and revolving around the sun. It models the moon as moving as well, rotating around it's axis and orbiting around the earth. You can't simply ignore this dynamic just so you can pretend they're both perfectly still and the reflected path back to the detector is a straight line that light could follow when it is actually a curve that light could not follow.

I am incapable of calculating

You got that right. The first true and correct statement you've made in this thread! None of the orbital velocities are anywhere near c, and are in fact less than a miniscule fraction of 1% of it, and besides has nothing to do with the trajectory light takes as observed from a frame of reference that is NOT in motion (unlike the earth-moon according to heliocentrism).
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 06:20:23 PM by Setec Astronomy »

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #56 on: May 08, 2016, 06:44:50 PM »
From an observer stationary relative to the Earth-Moon they would see light travel in a straight line, that is, proceed directly to the retroreflector and be reflected straight back. To do otherwise would be to impart a tangential velocity of 30km/s to the light which, as pointed out by Setec, is in violation of SR.
You are explaining it completely wrong. Why do you think they claim to aim the laser ahead of the target on the moon in the first place?

The background stars are moving, which the heliocentric model explains as being due to the earth moving - both rotating around its axis and revolving around the sun. It models the moon as moving as well, rotating around it's axis and orbiting around the earth. You can't simply ignore this dynamic just so you can pretend they're both perfectly still and the reflected path back to the detector is a straight line that light could follow when it is actually a curve that light could not follow.

I am incapable of calculating

You got that right. The first true and correct statement you've made in this thread! None of the orbital velocities are anywhere near c, and are in fact less than a miniscule fraction of 1% of it, and besides has nothing to do with the trajectory light takes as observed from a frame of reference that is NOT in motion (unlike the earth-moon according to heliocentrism).

But as we've already established (and you've confirmed) the distance the earth moves in that time frame is only 1km.  So if it fires the laser off so it will hit the reflector.  Once the laser hits, the Earth has moved .5km.  Then the laser returns and another .5km has passed under it.  But with the 20km footprint given by the reflectors (8 arcseconds) the detector catches the light.

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #57 on: May 08, 2016, 07:55:24 PM »
But as we've already established (and you've confirmed) the distance the earth moves in that time frame is only 1km.
No, we've estabished that the earth moves in its orbital path at 30 km per second. So in the time it takes for the light to return to the point it was emitted from the detector setup will be at least 75 km away.

Remember?
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 07:57:28 PM by Setec Astronomy »

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Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #58 on: May 08, 2016, 08:44:02 PM »
From an observer stationary relative to the Earth-Moon they would see light travel in a straight line, that is, proceed directly to the retroreflector and be reflected straight back. To do otherwise would be to impart a tangential velocity of 30km/s to the light which, as pointed out by Setec, is in violation of SR.
You are explaining it completely wrong. Why do you think they claim to aim the laser ahead of the target on the moon in the first place?

Because the Moon is moving with respect to the Earth.

Quote
The background stars are moving, which the heliocentric model explains as being due to the earth moving - both rotating around its axis and revolving around the sun. It models the moon as moving as well, rotating around it's axis and orbiting around the earth. You can't simply ignore this dynamic just so you can pretend they're both perfectly still and the reflected path back to the detector is a straight line that light could follow when it is actually a curve that light could not follow.

The light path taken by the light emitted from the Earth to the moon is straight from that FOR. It goes straight to the moon and straight back. For an observer on Venus, for example, the light pulse would be Doppler shifted to preserve lights constant velocity and the light would likely appear in a shape other than a Euclidean straight line. I think your problem is that you are assuming light travels in a straight line with respect to some sort of preferred FOR. There is no such thing.

Quote
I am incapable of calculating

You got that right. The first true and correct statement you've made in this thread! None of the orbital velocities are anywhere near c, and are in fact less than a miniscule fraction of 1% of it, and besides has nothing to do with the trajectory light takes as observed from a frame of reference that is NOT in motion (unlike the earth-moon according to heliocentrism).

Back to ad Homs. Well, alas for you, relativistic effects occur at very small fractions of c, they are just not apparent without extremely sensitive measuring instruments. GPS deals with relativistic effects regularly, for example.
FE'ism requires suspension of disbelief...

Setec Astronomy

Re: "Lunar Laser Ranging" (LLR) is a LIE and HOAX - The Simple PROOF
« Reply #59 on: May 08, 2016, 09:01:16 PM »
From an observer stationary relative to the Earth-Moon they would see light travel in a straight line, that is, proceed directly to the retroreflector and be reflected straight back. To do otherwise would be to impart a tangential velocity of 30km/s to the light which, as pointed out by Setec, is in violation of SR.
You are explaining it completely wrong. Why do you think they claim to aim the laser ahead of the target on the moon in the first place?

Because the Moon is moving with respect to the Earth.

Quote
The background stars are moving, which the heliocentric model explains as being due to the earth moving - both rotating around its axis and revolving around the sun. It models the moon as moving as well, rotating around it's axis and orbiting around the earth. You can't simply ignore this dynamic just so you can pretend they're both perfectly still and the reflected path back to the detector is a straight line that light could follow when it is actually a curve that light could not follow.

The light path taken by the light emitted from the Earth to the moon is straight from that FOR. It goes straight to the moon and straight back. For an observer on Venus, for example, the light pulse would be Doppler shifted to preserve lights constant velocity and the light would likely appear in a shape other than a Euclidean straight line. I think your problem is that you are assuming light travels in a straight line with respect to some sort of preferred FOR. There is no such thing.

Quote
I am incapable of calculating

You got that right. The first true and correct statement you've made in this thread! None of the orbital velocities are anywhere near c, and are in fact less than a miniscule fraction of 1% of it, and besides has nothing to do with the trajectory light takes as observed from a frame of reference that is NOT in motion (unlike the earth-moon according to heliocentrism).

Back to ad Homs. Well, alas for you, relativistic effects occur at very small fractions of c, they are just not apparent without extremely sensitive measuring instruments. GPS deals with relativistic effects regularly, for example.

You do not understand relativistic effects or even how to do the calculations, as you said yourself. You are arguing from a position of total ignorance and you admit you lack the capability to perform any calculations at all to quantify what you're saying.

I don't see the point in your replying to this thread and attempting to be part of a discussion - unless your aim is only to be a troll and obfuscate - when you clearly demonstrate an unwillingness to conceptually or mathematically quantify or qualify any of your statements.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2016, 09:16:36 PM by Setec Astronomy »