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Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2014, 07:36:39 PM »
I completely disagree. If my goal was to transverse the South Pole exactly I would be extremely careful to make sure I had done so. This is of course granting the idea that there are signs saying "South Pole that way".

But the explorers your referencing do not have the benefit of being you. They had no question in their mind that the earth was a globe. That's what they were taught. They followed the signs, they followed the path others before them have taken from one coastal antarctic port to the other. Compasses don't work there. Without a question that the earth is a globe and that they are truly circumnavigating Antarctica, and not a peninsula, they would have no need to be "extremely careful" to make sure that they had circumnavigated Antarctica to prove it was a continent.

There are a lot of assertions in here and zero support. Unless you are going to start citing sources for this it should just be ignored as biased editorializing.

Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2014, 07:41:02 PM »
I completely disagree. If my goal was to transverse the South Pole exactly I would be extremely careful to make sure I had done so. This is of course granting the idea that there are signs saying "South Pole that way".

But the explorers your referencing do not have the benefit of being you. They had no question in their mind that the earth was a globe. That's what they were taught. They followed the signs, they followed the path others before them have taken from one coastal antarctic port to the other. Compasses don't work there. Without a question that the earth is a globe and that they are truly circumnavigating Antarctica, and not a peninsula, they would have no need to be "extremely careful" to make sure that they had circumnavigated Antarctica to prove it was a continent.
Where do compasses not work?  Today we have GPS to know our location.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2014, 08:13:24 PM »
I completely disagree. If my goal was to transverse the South Pole exactly I would be extremely careful to make sure I had done so. This is of course granting the idea that there are signs saying "South Pole that way".

But the explorers your referencing do not have the benefit of being you. They had no question in their mind that the earth was a globe. That's what they were taught. They followed the signs, they followed the path others before them have taken from one coastal antarctic port to the other. Compasses don't work there. Without a question that the earth is a globe and that they are truly circumnavigating Antarctica, and not a peninsula, they would have no need to be "extremely careful" to make sure that they had circumnavigated Antarctica to prove it was a continent.

There are a lot of assertions in here and zero support. Unless you are going to start citing sources for this it should just be ignored as biased editorializing.

Have you ever met someone who calls themselves an "explorer"? They are universally brainless thrill seekers with too much money on their hands. Scientists are not explorers. Scientists are poor, and need to work for a living. The only reason a scientist goes to explore a far off exotic location like Antarctica is if a government is funding it, and the governments of the world lost interest in exploring Antarctica pretty much after they sent the first explorers in the late 1800's/early 1900's. Today some government institutions merely send people down there to study wildlife in a single spot, then return. Thorough, investigative and fundamental inquiry of the Antarctic continent is not conducted.

Every single time someone goes down to Antarctica in a challenge to cross it they merely trace steps of the early explorers, overly prepared with warm luxuries and survival safeguards of a millionaire on vacation, with books and stories in their bags about Antarctica and the people who died there. These people are merely doing it to say that they crossed Antarctica.

I don't see anyone crossing Antarctica horizontally to those few vertical paths. A true explorer wouldn't pride himself on taking a path others have taken.

Where do compasses not work?  Today we have GPS to know our location.

Compasses do not work where the magnetic field lines are vertical, which is a good chunk of the entire Antarctic circle.

GPS works by telling the receiver how far it is from the broadcasting device. The receiver knows that, under theory, every 69.5 is one degree. So, if a receiver is 347.5 miles from the receiver, the display takes the coordinates of the broadcasting device given to it in the stream and adds 347.5 miles to it to output a degree coordinate for the receiver's location. It is possible to use this method of navigation to avoid getting lost and assign coordinate values to all of the locations near that broadcasting device.

The same devices could be used on a plane perfectly well. The xy coordinates would simply be artificial constructs used to assign location names to the surface to navigate. In order to take those xy degree coordinates, which are designed assuming 360 degrees on a globe, and use it to say that the earth is a globe, which it is not, further investigation would be required beyond the simple act of navigating from point A to point B.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:42:18 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2014, 08:41:45 PM »
That is not how GPS works.

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Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2014, 08:43:59 PM »
That is not how GPS works.

The receiver determines its coordinates from its distance from the broadcasting beacon. Technically multiple beacons are required to get the direction information, but that is basically how GPS works.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:49:27 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2014, 08:47:40 PM »
That is not how GPS works.

The receiver determines its coordinates from its distance from the broadcasting beacon. Technically multiple beacons are required to get the direction information, but that is basically how GPS works.
GPS needs to receive from more than 1 satellite.  The spec is online.

Knowing the location from one transmitter does not help, how do you think it measures the distance?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2014, 08:48:58 PM »
That is not how GPS works.

The receiver determines its coordinates from its distance from the broadcasting beacon. Technically multiple beacons are required to get the direction information, but that is basically how GPS works.
GPS needs to receive from more than 1 satellite.  The spec is online.

Knowing the location from one transmitter does not help, how do you think it measures the distance?

Actually, you just quoted me as saying that multiple beacons are required to get direction information.

The distance is determined via timestamps. A broadcasting beacon announces its time and the receiving beacon receives it and compares its own time with the broadcasting time, using the speed of light to get a distance to the broadcasting beacon.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:52:56 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2014, 08:51:04 PM »
That is not how GPS works.

The receiver determines its coordinates from its distance from the broadcasting beacon. Technically multiple beacons are required to get the direction information, but that is basically how GPS works.
GPS needs to receive from more than 1 satellite.  The spec is online.

Knowing the location from one transmitter does not help, how do you think it measures the distance?

You just quoted me as saying that multiple beacons are required to get direction information.

The distance is determined via timestamps. A broadcasting beacon announces its time and the receiving beacon receives it and compares its own time with the broadcasting time, using the speed of light to get a distance to the broadcasting beacon.
You do not set the time in a GPS receiver. How does it know its direction or angle from the satellite?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2014, 08:54:03 PM »
That is not how GPS works.

The receiver determines its coordinates from its distance from the broadcasting beacon. Technically multiple beacons are required to get the direction information, but that is basically how GPS works.
GPS needs to receive from more than 1 satellite.  The spec is online.

Knowing the location from one transmitter does not help, how do you think it measures the distance?

You just quoted me as saying that multiple beacons are required to get direction information.

The distance is determined via timestamps. A broadcasting beacon announces its time and the receiving beacon receives it and compares its own time with the broadcasting time, using the speed of light to get a distance to the broadcasting beacon.
You do not set the time in a GPS receiver. How does it know its direction or angle from the satellite?

The clock of a gps device sets itself by looking at time stamps of incoming signals from multiple gps signals and gauging its own inaccuracy.

In use, a single beacon will be able to tell you how far you are from it just fine. The other beacons are mainly required to get direction information. The receiver doesn't know precisely what direction the signal came from and needs others to triangulate. It uses the other signals to figure out the direction the first signal came from and places itself on a coordinate map.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 09:00:05 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2014, 08:59:35 PM »
That is not how GPS works.

The receiver determines its coordinates from its distance from the broadcasting beacon. Technically multiple beacons are required to get the direction information, but that is basically how GPS works.
GPS needs to receive from more than 1 satellite.  The spec is online.

Knowing the location from one transmitter does not help, how do you think it measures the distance?

You just quoted me as saying that multiple beacons are required to get direction information.

The distance is determined via timestamps. A broadcasting beacon announces its time and the receiving beacon receives it and compares its own time with the broadcasting time, using the speed of light to get a distance to the broadcasting beacon.
You do not set the time in a GPS receiver. How does it know its direction or angle from the satellite?

A single beacon will be able to tell you how far you are from it just fine. The other beacons are only required to get direction information. The receiver doesn't know precisely what direction the signal came from and needs others to triangulate. It uses the other signals to figure out the direction the first signal came from and places itself on a coordinate map.
GPS transmitters are not on the land so the 69.5 number means nothing.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2014, 09:04:46 PM »
GPS transmitters are not on the land so the 69.5 number means nothing.

Perhaps you should tell us how GPS works to determine coordinate information, then.

Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #31 on: December 28, 2014, 09:06:14 PM »
GPS transmitters are not on the land so the 69.5 number means nothing.

Perhaps you should tell us how GPS works to determine coordinate information, then.
It's all in the published spec.  gps.gov

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #32 on: December 28, 2014, 09:09:52 PM »
GPS transmitters are not on the land so the 69.5 number means nothing.

Perhaps you should tell us how GPS works to determine coordinate information, then.
It's all in the published spec.  gps.gov

I've read all about GPS specs. GPS receivers have clocks that set themselves, the distance from the beacon is determined via time stamp differences, the receiver's coordinates are determined via addition based on the beacon's preprogrammed coordinates, multiple beacons required to get direction information, etc.

Perhaps you can tell us how they really work.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 09:12:11 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2014, 09:14:03 PM »
GPS transmitters are not on the land so the 69.5 number means nothing.

Perhaps you should tell us how GPS works to determine coordinate information, then.
It's all in the published spec.  gps.gov

I've read all about GPS specs. GPS receivers have clocks that set themselves, the distance from the beacon is determined via time stamp differences, the receiver's coordinates are determined via addition based on the beacon's preprogrammed coordinates, multiple beacons required to get direction information, etc.

Perhaps you can tell us how they really work.
How does a clock in a GPS receiver set itself?  Link to details please.

Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2014, 09:21:08 PM »
Hence GPS works at any location on earth as long as it can 'see' 3 satellites.  Very handy for measuring travelled distances...

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2014, 09:22:09 PM »
GPS transmitters are not on the land so the 69.5 number means nothing.

Perhaps you should tell us how GPS works to determine coordinate information, then.
It's all in the published spec.  gps.gov

I've read all about GPS specs. GPS receivers have clocks that set themselves, the distance from the beacon is determined via time stamp differences, the receiver's coordinates are determined via addition based on the beacon's preprogrammed coordinates, multiple beacons required to get direction information, etc.

Perhaps you can tell us how they really work.
How does a clock in a GPS receiver set itself?  Link to details please.

It takes the timestamps from multiple gps signals around it and gauges its own inaccuracy. While less effective, this is a work-around solution to installing expansive atomic clocks in each gps receiver.

Quote
Hence GPS works at any location on earth as long as it can 'see' 3 satellites.  Very handy for measuring travelled distances...

I'm sorry, what's your point?


Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2014, 09:25:20 PM »
GPS satellites orbit the round earth.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2014, 09:28:31 PM »
GPS satellites orbit the round earth.

What if those three satellite gps beacons were high altitude dirigibles, or antennas installed at military bases? Would GPS work then?

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Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2014, 09:34:38 PM »
Have you ever met someone who calls themselves an "explorer"? They are universally brainless thrill seekers with too much money on their hands. Scientists are not explorers. Scientists are poor, and need to work for a living. The only reason a scientist goes to explore a far off exotic location like Antarctica is if a government is funding it, and the governments of the world lost interest in exploring Antarctica pretty much after they sent the first explorers in the late 1800's/early 1900's. Today some government institutions merely send people down there to study wildlife in a single spot, then return. Thorough, investigative and fundamental inquiry of the Antarctic continent is not conducted.

Every single time someone goes down to Antarctica in a challenge to cross it they merely trace steps of the early explorers, overly prepared with warm luxuries and survival safeguards of a millionaire on vacation, with books and stories in their bags about Antarctica and the people who died there. These people are merely doing it to say that they crossed Antarctica.

I don't see anyone crossing Antarctica horizontally to those few vertical paths. A true explorer wouldn't pride himself on taking a path others have taken.

I am sorry you are having trouble Tom, let me try and help you. You said that these explorers were just retracing steps; this may or may not be true. If you want someone to believe you, you should quote a source that supports your position. You should not make Ad Hominem attacks against all explorers (what's up with that? Jealous?). When prompted to support your position, you should not just repeat the point again.

Want to try again?

Re: Strong Evidence for Round Earth
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2014, 09:38:42 PM »
GPS satellites orbit the round earth.

What if those three satellite gps beacons were high altitude dirigibles, or antennas installed at military bases? Would GPS work then?
GPS satellites orbit the earth, 24 give full coverage.