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Offline markjo

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2014, 08:02:50 PM »
The image is invalid for the following reasons:

1. The little man is over 1/4th the size of the earth's diameter, standing 2000 miles tall, and is able to see over the curvature of the earth to see the sun and moon simultaneously.

Tom, how is:


any more valid that this? 

???

One image depicts ma man who is 2000+ miles tall, looking around the curvature of the earth, and the other does not.
And the other has the earth several times larger than the sun.  So it looks like both images are invalid.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2014, 08:03:08 PM »
Except that the horizon is straight line as in my images. A man would need to be towering thousands of miles tall with his head into orbit to see around the curve of the earth to see an eclipse and the sun simultaneously. Your images neglect the horizon entirely.

Please show me, in my images, how both the sun and moon could be above the horizon line, simultaneously.

None of your images represent the reality.




No, if the Earth mass is almost infinite, the rays of light from the sun will bend towards it, so the Moon won't be illuminated, technically creating an eclipse.

So, impossible is nothing.  ;D

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2014, 08:08:19 PM »
And the other has the earth several times larger than the sun.  So it looks like both images are invalid.

The illustration I provided is from the observer's view, who is located at the point where the horizon line and the earth meet. The moon and sun take up approximately 0.5 degrees of the sky. The scene doesn't become any more possible in the illustration if we were to shrink the moon and sun to their appropriate sizes as seen from earth.

Please show us how it is possible for the moon and sun to be in the sky simultaneously in such a scene.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 08:13:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Gulliver

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2014, 08:16:56 PM »
And the other has the earth several times larger than the sun.  So it looks like both images are invalid.

The illustration I provided is from the observer's view, who is located at the point where the horizon line and the earth meet. The moon and sun take up approximately 0.5 degrees of the sky. The scene doesn't become any more possible in the illustration if we were to shrink the moon and sun to their appropriate sizes as seen from earth.

Please show us how it is possible for the moon and sun to be in the sky simultaneously in such a scene.
But distances do matter. Please try again, keeping distances to scale. Once you're seen your error,, please do stop back and retract your outlandish claim. Thanks.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
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Offline markjo

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2014, 08:21:48 PM »
And the other has the earth several times larger than the sun.  So it looks like both images are invalid.

The illustration I provided is from the observer's view, who is located at the point where the horizon line and the earth meet. The moon and sun take up approximately 0.5 degrees of the sky. The scene doesn't become any more possible in the illustration if we were to shrink the moon and sun to their appropriate sizes as seen from earth.
How do you know?  Have you tried drawing it to scale?

Please show us how it is possible for the moon and sun to be in the sky simultaneously in such a scene.
If you redraw your picture to scale, add about 1/2 degree of refraction to the elevation of the sun and moon and maybe put the observer on a high hilltop, then you will see for yourself.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #25 on: July 06, 2014, 08:28:05 PM »
I thought I already showed you how this is possible with refraction. It is the scientific explanation of a selenelion and the effects are consistent with refraction's laws.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #26 on: July 06, 2014, 11:15:03 PM »
And the other has the earth several times larger than the sun.  So it looks like both images are invalid.

The illustration I provided is from the observer's view, who is located at the point where the horizon line and the earth meet. The moon and sun take up approximately 0.5 degrees of the sky. The scene doesn't become any more possible in the illustration if we were to shrink the moon and sun to their appropriate sizes as seen from earth.

Please show us how it is possible for the moon and sun to be in the sky simultaneously in such a scene.
Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_eclipse#Selenelion
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2014, 01:32:37 AM »
I thought I already showed you how this is possible with refraction. It is the scientific explanation of a selenelion and the effects are consistent with refraction's laws.

I don't see anything scientific about blaming this inexplicable event on an optical illusion. What scientific studies have demonstrated this mysterious illusion? Where are the mechanics of this illusion explained?

I thought astronomical models could predict the setting and rising of the moon, stars, and sun down to the minute? Refraction is not considered in these spherical geometry models. It cannot be simultaneously true that astronomical models can accurately predict the positions of celestial bodies and that massive refraction occurs to bring celestial bodies from below the horizon and up into the sky. Which is true?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_eclipse#Selenelion

What am I supposed to be looking for? I see a single paragraph on the subject which ends with an assertion that an optical illusion did it.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 01:39:45 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2014, 01:53:33 AM »
Are you saying that refraction doesn't exist ???

In a selenelion there is refraction on both the source of light and the moon. As a matter of fact I can't think of a more dramatic scenario where refraction would be in play.

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2014, 02:03:04 AM »
Refraction is considered for moon rises and sets.


From: http://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/moon/about-moon-calculator.html
Quote
The Earth's atmosphere refracts the incoming light from the Moon in such a way that the Moon is visible longer than it would be without an atmosphere. The refraction depends on atmospheric pressure and temperature. Our calculations use the standard atmospheric pressure of 101.325 pascal and temperature of 15°C or 59°F. A higher atmospheric pressure, or lower temperature than the standard, means more refraction and the moonrise will be earlier and moonset later. In most cases, however, this would affect the rising and setting times by less than a minute. Near the North and South Poles this could have greater impact because of low temperatures and the slow rate of the Moon's rising and setting.

I would suspect that if a selenelion is forecasted then they would also account for the expectations there.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 02:07:18 AM by rottingroom »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2014, 03:01:12 AM »
If refraction would affect the moon so that it is off by less than a minute, then how does that correlate with the video where the moon is many minutes above the horizon line, supposedly put there by refraction?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 03:03:40 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2014, 03:10:42 AM »
If refraction would affect the moon so that it is off by less than a minute, then how does that correlate with the video where the moon is many minutes above the horizon line, supposedly put there by refraction?
Because during a selenelion the source of light causing the shadow on the moon is also refracted.

Try drawing this to scale if you'd like. Upload as large an image as you'd like as long as you can manage to make it to scale.

Offline Gulliver

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2014, 04:22:06 AM »
I thought I already showed you how this is possible with refraction. It is the scientific explanation of a selenelion and the effects are consistent with refraction's laws.

I don't see anything scientific about blaming this inexplicable event on an optical illusion. What scientific studies have demonstrated this mysterious illusion? Where are the mechanics of this illusion explained?

I thought astronomical models could predict the setting and rising of the moon, stars, and sun down to the minute? Refraction is not considered in these spherical geometry models. It cannot be simultaneously true that astronomical models can accurately predict the positions of celestial bodies and that massive refraction occurs to bring celestial bodies from below the horizon and up into the sky. Which is true?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_eclipse#Selenelion

What am I supposed to be looking for? I see a single paragraph on the subject which ends with an assertion that an optical illusion did it.
Why can't a model include refraction and be accurate? GR relies on it. I suggest that you read about the false dilemma fallacy here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 04:27:29 AM by Gulliver »
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2014, 06:15:40 PM »
How do you know?  Have you tried drawing it to scale?

I don't see how a scaled drawing makes the scene any more possible.



vs.



Drawing source: The Oatmeal
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 07:45:30 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2014, 06:19:54 PM »
How do you know?  Have you tried drawing it to scale?

I don't see how a scaled drawing makes the scene any more possible.



vs.



I don't see how it doesn't. We aren't invoking refraction improperly.

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Offline markjo

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2014, 06:31:03 PM »
How do you know?  Have you tried drawing it to scale?

I don't see how a scaled drawing makes the scene any more possible.



vs.



Did you add 1/2 degree of atmospheric refraction like I asked you to?  Also, how did you determine the elevation of the sun and moon in your diagram?  You may also want to make it a proper ray diagram so that you can see just where the umbra and penumbra are.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2014, 06:34:05 PM »
That's 1/2 ° for both the sun and the moon by the way. Its not as simple as showing positions and claiming impossible. You have to show the refraction as well. Show lines representing the normal, the atmosphere, etc...

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2014, 06:58:16 PM »
Did you add 1/2 degree of atmospheric refraction like I asked you to?  Also, how did you determine the elevation of the sun and moon in your diagram?  You may also want to make it a proper ray diagram so that you can see just where the umbra and penumbra are.

This is what 0.5 degrees looks like.



That's 1/2 ° for both the sun and the moon by the way. Its not as simple as showing positions and claiming impossible. You have to show the refraction as well. Show lines representing the normal, the atmosphere, etc...

An additional 0.5 degrees doesn't get you to where you need it to be.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 07:08:31 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2014, 07:16:52 PM »
Why do you have the blue line coming from the moon heading toward a point so far away from the observer? You point it to where it needs to be above the observer, where that ray of light enters a denser medium. You don't really have any conception of what is going on do you?
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 07:21:54 PM by rottingroom »

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Offline markjo

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #39 on: July 07, 2014, 07:18:43 PM »
Did you add 1/2 degree of atmospheric refraction like I asked you to?  Also, how did you determine the elevation of the sun and moon in your diagram?  You may also want to make it a proper ray diagram so that you can see just where the umbra and penumbra are.

This is what 0.5 degrees looks like.



That's 1/2 ° for both the sun and the moon by the way. Its not as simple as showing positions and claiming impossible. You have to show the refraction as well. Show lines representing the normal, the atmosphere, etc...

An additional 0.5 degrees doesn't get you to where you need it to be.
Tom, you have to add .5 degrees to both the sun's elevation and the moon's elevation.  Also, please make it a ray diagram so that you can see where the umbra and penumbra are (adjusted for refraction).
« Last Edit: July 07, 2014, 07:20:24 PM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. -- Charles Darwin

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.