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Offline Tom Bishop

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How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« on: July 06, 2014, 01:49:13 AM »
In RET a Lunar Eclipse occurs when the moon, earth, and sun perfectly align to cast a shadow of the earth upon the moon. However, there exists what are known as Selenelions, where both the moon and sun have been seen above the horizon during a Lunar Eclipse. Observations of seeing both the sun and moon in the sky during a Lunar Eclipse has been recorded as far back as Tycho Brahe. This event should be impossible under the Round Earth model.

#

Take a look at this Selenelion, for example. The moon is in front of the camera, the sun is rising behind the camera, and the earth is below. Firstly, during a lunar eclipse the moon should be well below the horizon line when the sun is rising up from the horizon. This is an impossibility in the Round Earth model.

Secondly, in the video the shadow of the earth is obscuring the moon from the top down rather than the bottom up, contrary to what would be expected when the earth is passing between the moon and sun. The sun's light should be peeking over the earth's horizon and hitting the moon from the top down.

Are we to believe that "refraction" has not only placed the moon that far above the earth's surface, but has moved the shadow the wrong way to boot?



Please explain.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 02:59:53 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2014, 12:09:48 PM »
In RET a Lunar Eclipse occurs when the moon, earth, and sun perfectly align to cast a shadow of the earth upon the moon.

That's wrong.

That would be a "total lunar eclipse" but there are "partial eclipses" too, where the earth only projects a shadow over a smaller zone of the Moon's surface. In addition, eclipses can be due to the object being in the umbra, penumbra or antumbra.

Other than that, you really have a huge lack of knowledge to continue discussing in this forum about astronomy, optics, physics,  etc...

Your diagram is terribly wrong, awful, fake, horrible and lacking any kind of trustable information. Stop posting data that is false or based on your missinformation, please.

It should be like this one:




So I hope you understand now how a round planet can explain a selenehelion, while a flat planet model can't.

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2014, 12:55:42 PM »
Tom Bishop: please note how when (in this case) refraction is invoked for us RE'rs, that refraction, as used here, does in fact work in a way that is consistent with the laws of refraction.

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2014, 01:30:53 PM »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2014, 02:04:05 PM »
In RET a Lunar Eclipse occurs when the moon, earth, and sun perfectly align to cast a shadow of the earth upon the moon.

That's wrong.

That would be a "total lunar eclipse" but there are "partial eclipses" too, where the earth only projects a shadow over a smaller zone of the Moon's surface. In addition, eclipses can be due to the object being in the umbra, penumbra or antumbra.

Other than that, you really have a huge lack of knowledge to continue discussing in this forum about astronomy, optics, physics,  etc...

Your diagram is terribly wrong, awful, fake, horrible and lacking any kind of trustable information. Stop posting data that is false or based on your missinformation, please.

It should be like this one:




So I hope you understand now how a round planet can explain a selenehelion, while a flat planet model can't.

The image is invalid for the following reasons:

1. The little man is over 1/4th the size of the earth's diameter, standing 2000 miles tall, and is able to see over the curvature of the earth to see the sun and moon simultaneously.

2. The sun is correctly lighting the moon from the top down in your image, as it peeks over the horizon. In the video the sun is lighting the moon from the bottom up as it rises. This remains unexplained.

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2014, 02:09:37 PM »
1. The little man is over 1/4th the size of the earth's diameter, standing 2000 miles tall, and is able to see over the curvature of the earth to see the sun and moon simultaneously.



2. The sun is correctly lighting the moon from the top down in your image, as it peeks over the horizon. In the video the sun is lighting the moon from the bottom up as it rises. This remains unexplained.

The sun is correctly lighting the moon top down in my image? I wasn't aware that either image was an animation.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 02:20:50 PM by rottingroom »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2014, 02:22:41 PM »
Tom Bishop: please note how when (in this case) refraction is invoked for us RE'rs, that refraction, as used here, does in fact work in a way that is consistent with the laws of refraction.



Even if there was some sort of extreme refraction in the atmosphere was the case, where the moon could be over 30 degrees above the horizon, that would mean that the position of all celestial bodies anywhere near the horizon is unpredictable in the Round Earth model using astronomical models based on spherical geometry, which do not take refraction into account. I keep hearing from you guys that we can predict moon set, moon rise, etc under those models as a proof of RET.

Why is it that all mirages in the atmosphere are inconsistent and indistinct while this mirage is perfect and distinct for a long period of time?



Have you ever seen a tree or a boat floating in the sky through a mirage? It is not distinct at all.



« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 02:32:14 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2014, 02:26:35 PM »
30°?

The video you posted couldn't possibly be 30°.

Also a celestial body like the moon goes through much more atmosphere than something like a ship and its transition from one medium to another is much more extreme so it only follows that the refraction would be more dramatic than a ship that is very near to the surface.


Quote from: Tom Bishop
Why is it that all mirages in the atmosphere are inconsistent and indistinct while this mirage is perfect and distinct for a long period of time?

Yes, the video of your ship is indistinct and the mountain being further away as a little less indistinct. Imagine how much more difficult it would be to observe the indistinct quality of a moon image if that image is 250,000 miles away?
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 02:45:54 PM by rottingroom »

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2014, 02:30:06 PM »
The image is invalid for the following reasons:

1. The little man is over 1/4th the size of the earth's diameter, standing 2000 miles tall, and is able to see over the curvature of the earth to see the sun and moon simultaneously.

That's correct, and that is why everyone knows that the earth is a sphere not a flat disk.

2. The sun is correctly lighting the moon from the top down in your image, as it peeks over the horizon. In the video the sun is lighting the moon from the bottom up as it rises. This remains unexplained.

The video is fake, since you cannot see the curvature of the earth, as I stated before.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 02:32:21 PM by Yamato »

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #9 on: July 06, 2014, 02:42:14 PM »
The image is invalid for the following reasons:

1. The little man is over 1/4th the size of the earth's diameter, standing 2000 miles tall, and is able to see over the curvature of the earth to see the sun and moon simultaneously.

That's correct, and that is why everyone knows that the earth is a sphere not a flat disk.

2. The sun is correctly lighting the moon from the top down in your image, as it peeks over the horizon. In the video the sun is lighting the moon from the bottom up as it rises. This remains unexplained.

The video is fake, since you cannot see the curvature of the earth, as I stated before.

I actually don't think it is fake. You can just do a search a for selenelion on youtube and find several videos of the same phenomenon where the sun is also observed. I just think that the scientific explanation is sound.


Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2014, 02:51:57 PM »
The image is invalid for the following reasons:

1. The little man is over 1/4th the size of the earth's diameter, standing 2000 miles tall, and is able to see over the curvature of the earth to see the sun and moon simultaneously.

That's correct, and that is why everyone knows that the earth is a sphere not a flat disk.

2. The sun is correctly lighting the moon from the top down in your image, as it peeks over the horizon. In the video the sun is lighting the moon from the bottom up as it rises. This remains unexplained.

The video is fake, since you cannot see the curvature of the earth, as I stated before.

I actually don't think it is fake. You can just do a search a for selenelion on youtube and find several videos of the same phenomenon where the sun is also observed. I just think that the scientific explanation is sound.

Do you know what irony is?

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2014, 02:55:17 PM »
The image is invalid for the following reasons:

1. The little man is over 1/4th the size of the earth's diameter, standing 2000 miles tall, and is able to see over the curvature of the earth to see the sun and moon simultaneously.

That's correct, and that is why everyone knows that the earth is a sphere not a flat disk.

2. The sun is correctly lighting the moon from the top down in your image, as it peeks over the horizon. In the video the sun is lighting the moon from the bottom up as it rises. This remains unexplained.

The video is fake, since you cannot see the curvature of the earth, as I stated before.

I actually don't think it is fake. You can just do a search a for selenelion on youtube and find several videos of the same phenomenon where the sun is also observed. I just think that the scientific explanation is sound.

Do you know what irony is?

Well, now that you mention I can see your sarcasm. I didn't pick up on it, although now it does seem obvious. Whoops.

I'm pretty sure that you edited your original post that made it obvious that you were being sarcastic and that when I did respond, I didn't notice your edits. I don't think your original response mentioned the curvature of the earth and I recall that you said something about a fake conspiracy company.

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Offline markjo

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2014, 03:12:13 PM »
The image is invalid for the following reasons:

1. The little man is over 1/4th the size of the earth's diameter, standing 2000 miles tall, and is able to see over the curvature of the earth to see the sun and moon simultaneously.

Tom, how is:


any more valid that this? 

???

2. The sun is correctly lighting the moon from the top down in your image, as it peeks over the horizon. In the video the sun is lighting the moon from the bottom up as it rises. This remains unexplained.
The moon going into an eclipse is lit opposite of the moon coming out of eclipse.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 03:27:29 PM by markjo »
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Offline Gulliver

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2014, 06:30:10 PM »
In RET a Lunar Eclipse occurs when the moon, earth, and sun perfectly align to cast a shadow of the earth upon the moon. However, there exists what are known as Selenelions, where both the moon and sun have been seen above the horizon during a Lunar Eclipse. Observations of seeing both the sun and moon in the sky during a Lunar Eclipse has been recorded as far back as Tycho Brahe. This event should be impossible under the Round Earth model...
Please explain.
Please tell me why you think that "this event" should be impossible under the RE model. No REer contends that, so you attack a straw man.

"Outer" shadows of any object under the shine of a large light source are larger than the object, especially as distant from the object in the direction of illuminating light grows. So you are making up your story rather poorly.

So... That's just not even a start of a concern.
Don't rely on FEers for history or physics.
[Hampton] never did [go to prison] and was never found guilty of libel.
The ISS doesn't accelerate.

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2014, 07:01:07 PM »
Please tell me why you think that "this event" should be impossible under the RE model. No REer contends that, so you attack a straw man.

"Outer" shadows of any object under the shine of a large light source are larger than the object, especially as distant from the object in the direction of illuminating light grows. So you are making up your story rather poorly.

So... That's just not even a start of a concern.

An illustration will make him easy to understand:


Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2014, 07:06:09 PM »
I believe that what he is concerned about is that the observer "on top" of the earth can see both the moon in front of him and the sun behind them and that while this is true, the moon has it's shadow on the top relative to the observer, when Tom expects the shadow to be on the bottom relative to the observer.

Like I said, there is refraction going on but I also did not consider that it is not only the moon that appears higher than it actually is, but the sun also appears higher than it actually is.

Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2014, 07:40:12 PM »
I believe that what he is concerned about is that the observer "on top" of the earth can see both the moon in front of him and the sun behind them and that while this is true, the moon has it's shadow on the top relative to the observer, when Tom expects the shadow to be on the bottom relative to the observer.

My diagram is a top-down view of the sun, earth and moon.
The man is standing on the equator, not on the pole.
Also note the red arrow showing the rotation direction of the earth.

Now answering your question:

the Moon seems to rotate from east to west around the earth, so it more or less follows the same movement as the Sun, which also comes from the east and goes to west.

Now, imagine a situation like in the diagram i posted before. The little man is in New Mexico, but instead being the dawn, it is the dusk.

The dusk means that the Sun is moving down towards the horizon.
And as we know now, the moon follows the same east-west movement as the sun (but at different speed), so the moon will also look like moving down into the horizon.

So, in the video, the sun has set some hours ago, and since the moon moves slower, it is also moving down in the horizon, but still is visible after the sun has been set that day.


I hope it's clear now how the thing works.
If not, I would call Diagram Titan to aid us in the explanation.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2014, 07:43:42 PM »
In RET a Lunar Eclipse occurs when the moon, earth, and sun perfectly align to cast a shadow of the earth upon the moon. However, there exists what are known as Selenelions, where both the moon and sun have been seen above the horizon during a Lunar Eclipse. Observations of seeing both the sun and moon in the sky during a Lunar Eclipse has been recorded as far back as Tycho Brahe. This event should be impossible under the Round Earth model...
Please explain.
Please tell me why you think that "this event" should be impossible under the RE model. No REer contends that, so you attack a straw man.

"Outer" shadows of any object under the shine of a large light source are larger than the object, especially as distant from the object in the direction of illuminating light grows. So you are making up your story rather poorly.

So... That's just not even a start of a concern.

Observer is located where the horizon and earth meet.




« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 07:50:46 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2014, 07:47:46 PM »
Please tell me why you think that "this event" should be impossible under the RE model. No REer contends that, so you attack a straw man.

"Outer" shadows of any object under the shine of a large light source are larger than the object, especially as distant from the object in the direction of illuminating light grows. So you are making up your story rather poorly.

So... That's just not even a start of a concern.

An illustration will make him easy to understand:



Except that the horizon is straight line as in my images. A man would need to be towering thousands of miles tall with his head into orbit to see around the curve of the earth to see an eclipse and the sun simultaneously. Your images neglect the horizon entirely.

Please show me, in my images, how both the sun and moon could be above the horizon line, simultaneously.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2014, 07:51:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How does Round Earth Theory explain the Selenelion?
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2014, 07:53:18 PM »
The image is invalid for the following reasons:

1. The little man is over 1/4th the size of the earth's diameter, standing 2000 miles tall, and is able to see over the curvature of the earth to see the sun and moon simultaneously.

Tom, how is:


any more valid that this? 

???

One image depicts a man who is 2000+ miles tall, looking around the curvature of the earth, and the other does not.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 08:04:23 PM by Tom Bishop »