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Offline Tom Bishop

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Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« on: May 03, 2014, 09:28:22 PM »
Astronomers have found what is, according to the true and correct theories of Modern Astronomy, a star colder than ice!



How amazing that something like this can exist. Undoubtedly these methods of measuring the distance, composition, and temperature of stars based on slight color variations are well established, proven time and time again through direct sampling methods. Like the little-known time when the Victorian-era Royal Astronomical Society, who came up with most of the current methods, sent a space ship to a star. Remember that? It proved to the world that our present practice of Astronomy comes from something more than looking at stars and making guesses.

http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/meet-the-star-that-is-colder-than-ice/
« Last Edit: May 03, 2014, 11:34:58 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2014, 10:31:16 PM »
Yes, you can have a star whose surface temperature is less than 0 degrees Celsius. I don't see a reason in your post to doubt that.

Yes, scientists have painstakingly documented the well tested, carefully reviewed technique of remotely sensing a star's surface temperature. Read the amazing seminal work by Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin, "Stellar atmospheres", The Observatory, 1925; Harvard College Observatory, Monographs, no. 1. This book is her PH.D thesis which was submitted to Radcliffe College in 1925.

Please watch Episode 8 "Sisters of the Sun" of Cosmos here: http://www.fox.com/full-episodes .

Oh and just to set you straight of a couple of possible misconceptions on your part: No the theory was not developed by a man. No the theory was not developed by the RAS (though the RAS gladly welcomed Dr. Payne-Gaposchkin into the Society after her thesis was published.)

Oh and remote sensing works. Consider how one can determine the presences of parasites in one's liver, without sending a "space ship".
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2014, 12:28:02 AM »
Per the article in the OP, this is a Brown Dwarf star.

According to Wikipedia Brown Dwarfs are fueled by Deuterium, the beginning stage of the full Stellar Nucleosynthesis process.

    "Since hydrogen burning requires much higher temperatures and pressures than deuterium burning does, there are objects massive enough to burn deuterium but not massive enough to burn hydrogen. These objects are called brown dwarfs"

We also learn from that same article that Deuterium burns at a minimum of 10^6K

    "Deuterium is the most easily fused nucleus available to accreting protostars, and burning in the center of protostars can proceed when temperatures exceed 10^6 K."

10^6 K = 999727 Celsius

Uh oh...
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 12:45:19 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2014, 12:45:18 AM »
According to Universe Today, this star is 15-30 Jupiter Masses

    "As it turns out, CFBDS0059 is small, only 15-30 times the mass of Jupiter, fulfilling the lower mass limit of brown dwarf stars"


According to Wikipedia Brown Dwarfs 13 to 80 Jupiter masses burn Deuterium

    "Brown dwarfs are substellar objects too low in mass to sustain hydrogen-1 fusion reactions in their cores, unlike main-sequence stars, which can. They occupy the mass range between the heaviest gas giants and the lightest stars, with an upper limit around 75 to 80 Jupiter masses (MJ). Brown dwarfs heavier than about 13 MJ are thought to fuse deuterium and those above ~65 MJ, fuse lithium as well."


Finally, according to Wikipedia, Deuterium burns at a minimum of 10^6K

    "Deuterium is the most easily fused nucleus available to accreting protostars, and burning in the
center of protostars can proceed when temperatures exceed 10^6 K."[/list]


10^6 K = 999727 Celsius

Uh oh...

I'm glad to assist you here. Thanks for explaining your concern. The most significant error you made was assuming that the burning fuel is on the surface. (You knew the 0 degrees Celsius was measured in the star's atmosphere. Remember the title of Cecilia Payne-Gaposchkin's thesis.) Nuclear fusion is confined to the very center of the star. (You might already know that fusion requires great pressure that occurs only at the star's center.)  So the temperature at which deuterium fuses is not the surface temperature. This error destroys your argument and your concern. Please feel free to follow up with additional concerns or questions. Thanks again.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2014, 01:49:43 AM »
It doesn't say in the article that the temperature listed is only that of the star's surface. Astronomers claim to know the temperature of the interior of the sun very well, just by looking at it! The article doesn't specify.

To assert that at the center of this very low mass star, with a radius about the size of Jupiter's (all Brown Dwarfs are about the size radius of Jupiter), the temperature is 999727+ Celsius at the center and below 0 Celsius at the edges, is quite imaginative.

Astronomy depicts Brown Dwarfs as being very simple bodies with few layers in comparison with the sun. As far as I've read there is no significant difference in temperature between the core and surface for a Brown Dwarf. In a Brown Dwarf the surface recycles continuously with the core. There is a core and a convective zone.



In a convective zone, the matter continuously recycles directly from the core.

Compare this to the interior of the much larger sun, where the cooler surface matter does not directly recycle with the core, allowing the surface to be remain cooler in comparison with the core:



Are we expected to believe the absurdity that within WISE J085510.83–071442.5 the core is a 999727 Celsius or more, and the convection zone is colder than ice? And that this matter on the surface continuously recycles back into the core?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 02:21:38 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2014, 02:20:36 AM »
It doesn't say in the artile[sic] that the temperature is that of the star's atmosphere.  ...
Are you expecting us to believe that at the center of this very low mass star, with a radius about the size of Jupiter's (all Brown Dwarfs are about the size radius of Jupiter), the temperature is 999727+ Celsius at the center and below 0 Celsius at the edges?
...
In a convective zone, the matter continuously recycles directly from the core.
...
Are we expected to believe that in WISE J085510.83–071442.5 the core is a 999727 Celsius or more, and the convection zone is colder than ice? And that this matter on the surface continuously recycles back into the core?
Yes, the article does make it clear that it's the surface temperature. It's also clear from "Stellar Atmospheres" that it's the visible light that we're using to determine remote sensing of a star's temperature.

Quote from: http://www.fromquarkstoquasars.com/meet-the-star-that-is-colder-than-ice/
By observing the spectra of the light it emitted (colder objects tend to be red in color, while the hotter ones are blue), he concluded that the temperature hangs around a nippy 225 to 260 Kelvin (that’s below the freezing point of water).

I expect you to provide evidence of your outlandish claims. I have no interest at all in what you believe, just what you can support with evidence and sound reasoning.

I suggest that you do the math to support your claim. You'll need to start with the diameter of fusing center. I have no idea how to obtain that number, so I suspect there's no means for you to support your claim. Once you have that diameter, then you can work the equations to determine what range of temperatures a brown star's surface can be. To be clear, you error again assuming that a brown star's convention is instantaneous and perfectly distributing of the star's heat. It is not.

Regardless of even those errors, you face the inverse squared law. Imagine a campfire with two seating rings, concentric about the fire. The inner circle holds four seats, so four people share the fire's heat. The outer circle holds eight seats. With twice the people, there's half the heat.

Finally I suggest that you learn the importance of original sourcing. Using a "newsy" article rather than the scholarly article causes you much confusion. It's harder to read science than news. If you had gone to the original source, you would have learned:

Quote from: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2014-127
Brown dwarfs start their lives like stars, as collapsing balls of gas, but they lack the mass to burn nuclear fuel and radiate starlight.

So again, you've erred. No fusion there.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2014, 03:00:29 AM »
I don't believe I have stated that Brown Dwarfs are powered through full Stellar Fusion. I quoted sources which indicate Brown Dwarfs as being powered by Deuterium burning, which is a partial version of Stellar Fusion (the first two stages). To achieve Deuterium burning, a temperature of 999727 Celsius is required.

So I see that you persist in the idea that this star's sub zero surface exists simultaneously with a ~million degree core. I saw that you gave no objection to the interior illustrations I provided of the convective process for a Brown Dwarf.

Please explain to our ignorant community how matter colder than ice can directly recycle with ultra hot matter over and over again, without the entire system equalizing. I am genuinely interested and would pleasantly like to know.

Quote
Regardless of even those errors, you face the inverse squared law. Imagine a campfire with two seating rings, concentric about the fire. The inner circle holds four seats, so four people share the fire's heat. The outer circle holds eight seats. With twice the people, there's half the heat.

What if someone on the outer edge of the circle gets up and tosses himself into the burning bond fire over and over again. What is his temperature then?

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2014, 03:08:12 AM »
So I see that you persist in the idea that this star's sub zero surface exists simultaneously with a ~million degree core. I saw that you gave no objection to the interior structure illustrations I provided for a Brown Dwarf.

Please explain to our ignorant community how matter colder than ice can directly recycle with ultra hot matter over and over again, without the entire system equalizing. I am genuinely interested and would pleasantly like to know.
If you don't pay attention, I don't know that you'll learn anything here. Let's start with the temperature at the core. As the NASA article states, brown dwarf stars don't have a fusing core.

Quote from: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2014-127
Brown dwarfs start their lives like stars, as collapsing balls of gas, but they lack the mass to burn nuclear fuel and radiate starlight.

I hope this time you get this point. I don't know what else I can do to help you correct your misunderstanding that repeating the above quote. There is no "ultra hot matter" (whatever that redundant term means...).

Next, let's deal with your confusion about convention. By definition, convention is the flow between two temperature differentials. You seem to assume that all conventions immediately lead to equalized temperatures throughout the star. There is no basis for that assumption. Clearly the surface radiates energy to space, including to the Spitzer and WISE. I encourage you to be on better guard against unwarranted assumptions.

I tried the campfire example to assist you. Now let me have you imagine a lake that's frozen over. Why doesn't every lake with a frozen surface immediately become solid ice? Surely there's convention within the liquid water of the lake. Polar oceans on Earth have had frozen surfaces for eons, yet they are not, for the most part, not solid ice. So if you had reflected on your convention assumption for even a few minutes, you would have found your mistake on your own., Now I hope you can understand your error and accept that 0 degrees Celsius is, while unusual, not an improbable surface temperature of a brown dwarf. I hope that helps.

You've added another, rather silly, claim that deuterium burning is not burning nuclear fuel. It is. And you've seen the NASA article quote. There's no nuclear fuel burnt in brown dwarfs, so there is no deuterium burning.

Otherwise your new post is redundant except for the insipid jumping into the fire scenario, so I've answered all your relevant concerns.

Please don't call the community ignorant. It's obviously not.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2014, 03:20:55 AM »
Quote from: Gulliver
If you don't pay attention, I don't know that you'll learn anything here. Let's start with the temperature at the core. As the NASA article states, brown dwarf stars don't have a fusing core.

Quote from: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2014-127
Brown dwarfs start their lives like stars, as collapsing balls of gas, but they lack the mass to burn nuclear fuel and radiate starlight.

I hope this time you get this point. I don't know what else I can do to help you correct your misunderstanding that repeating the above quote. There is no "ultra hot matter" (whatever that redundant term means...).

Sigh. Brown Dwarfs have a burning core. They burn Deuterium. It is a partial, incomplete version of the Stellar Fusion process.

Quote
Next, let's deal with your confusion about convention. By definition, convention is the flow between two temperature differentials. You seem to assume that all conventions immediately lead to equalized temperatures throughout the star. There is no basis for that assumption. Clearly the surface radiates energy to space, including to the Spitzer and WISE. I encourage you to be on better guard against unwarranted assumptions.

Look at the illustration again. Matter is continuously recycling with the core. This is how it is displayed for Brown Dwarfs and Red Dwarfs. This is how astronomy says they work.

Convention led to the conclusion of equalized temperatures. If you inject ice cold water into your veins, your blood circulations causes the coolness of the site to equalize over your entire body.

Quote
I tried the campfire example to assist you. Now let me have you imagine a lake that's frozen over. Why doesn't every lake with a frozen surface immediately become solid ice? Surely there's convention within the liquid water of the lake. Polar oceans on Earth have had frozen surfaces for eons, yet they are not, for the most part, not solid ice. So if you had reflected on your convention assumption for even a few minutes, you would have found your mistake on your own., Now I hope you can understand your error and accept that 0 degrees Celsius is, while unusual, not an improbable surface temperature of a brown dwarf. I hope that helps.

If the ice surface of a newly frozen-over lake were continuously brought to the bottom of the lake, it would no longer be ice. The entire system would reach an equilibrium.

Quote
You've added another, rather silly, claim that deuterium burning is not burning nuclear fuel. It is. And you've seen the NASA article quote. There's no nuclear fuel burnt in brown dwarfs, so there is no deuterium burning.

Where have I said anything about burning, or not burning, nuclear fuel?  ??? I haven't even written the word nuclear, or nuclear fuel, in this thread.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2018, 11:49:40 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2014, 03:35:56 AM »
You've answered your own question: the core of the BD is very hot.  Hot matter travels away from the core and cools in the process.  With less energy to resist the force of gravity it sinks back toward the hot core where it's heated and the process begins again.  That's how convection works.  Dunno where you got the idea that convection causes thermal equilibrium.

This is perfectly consistent with how scientists describe lots of other astronomical objects, including the Earth.  Jupiter's surface, for example, is much colder than ice, yet its core is thought to be 24,000C: http://astronomy.nju.edu.cn/~lixd/GA/AT4/AT411/HTML/AT41102.htm
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2014, 03:42:48 AM »
You've answered your own question: the core of the BD is very hot.  Hot matter travels away from the core and cools in the process.  With less energy to resist the force of gravity it sinks back toward the hot core where it's heated and the process begins again.  That's how convection works.  Dunno where you got the idea that convection causes thermal equilibrium.

Thermodynamics doesn't work that way.

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physical_Chemistry/Thermodynamics/Laws_of_Thermodynamics/0th_Law_of_Thermodynamics



    "If when two bodies are placed in thermal communication neither of them loses or gains heat, the two bodies are said to have equal temperature or the same temperature. The two bodies are then said to be in thermal equilibrium." -- Clerk Maxwell
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 03:47:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2014, 03:46:26 AM »
Quote from: Gulliver
If you don't pay attention, I don't know that you'll learn anything here. Let's start with the temperature at the core. As the NASA article states, brown dwarf stars don't have a fusing core.

Quote from: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.php?release=2014-127
Brown dwarfs start their lives like stars, as collapsing balls of gas, but they lack the mass to burn nuclear fuel and radiate starlight.

I hope this time you get this point. I don't know what else I can do to help you correct your misunderstanding that repeating the above quote. There is no "ultra hot matter" (whatever that redundant term means...).

Sigh. Brown Dwarfs have a burning core. They burn Deuterium. It is a partial version of the Stellar Fusion process. I said nothing about Brown Dwarfs operating via fusion.

Quote
Next, let's deal with your confusion about convention. By definition, convention is the flow between two temperature differentials. You seem to assume that all conventions immediately lead to equalized temperatures throughout the star. There is no basis for that assumption. Clearly the surface radiates energy to space, including to the Spitzer and WISE. I encourage you to be on better guard against unwarranted assumptions.

Look at the illustration again. Matter is continuously recycling with the core. This is how it is displayed for Brown Dwarfs and Red Dwarfs. This is how astronomy says they work.

Quote
I tried the campfire example to assist you. Now let me have you imagine a lake that's frozen over. Why doesn't every lake with a frozen surface immediately become solid ice? Surely there's convention within the liquid water of the lake. Polar oceans on Earth have had frozen surfaces for eons, yet they are not, for the most part, not solid ice. So if you had reflected on your convention assumption for even a few minutes, you would have found your mistake on your own., Now I hope you can understand your error and accept that 0 degrees Celsius is, while unusual, not an improbable surface temperature of a brown dwarf. I hope that helps.

If the ice surface of a frozen-over lake were continuously brought to the bottom of the lake, it would no longer be ice. The entire system would reach an equilibrium.

Quote
You've added another, rather silly, claim that deuterium burning is not burning nuclear fuel. It is. And you've seen the NASA article quote. There's no nuclear fuel burnt in brown dwarfs, so there is no deuterium burning.

Where did I say anything about burning nuclear fuel?  ??? I haven't even written the word nuclear, or nuclear fuel, in this thread.
I seem unable to help you with more than one point at a time. Let's deal with nuclear first. Once you understand your mistake on this topic then maybe we can move on to your other mistakes.

The "burning" of deuterium must be a nuclear process. Deuterium is the nuclear fuel when deuterium is burned. So when you wrote "burning of deuterium" you wrote about nuclear fusion. It's that simple.

You may not understand that "burning of deuterium", a isotope of hydrogen, is not like the burning of charcoal. That's a chemical process, called oxidation. Molecular oxygen (typically) from the Earth's atmosphere combines with the longer carbon chains of the charcoal producing ash, heat, and carbon dioxide. Deuterium burning is the fusing of the nuclei of that isotope to form typically an isotope of helium.

[qoute author=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deuterium_burning]Deuterium burning is a nuclear fusion reaction that occurs in stars and some substellar objects, in which a deuterium nucleus and a proton combine to form a helium-3 nucleus. It occurs as the second stage of the proton–proton chain reaction, in which a deuterium nucleus formed from two protons fuses with a further proton, but can also proceed from primordial deuterium.[/quote]

Yes, brown dwarfs are hot enough to burn the second heaviest hydrogen isotope. No, they are not hot enough to burn the lighter, more abundant lighter isotope. No, they do not have a stellar core that produces light, so they can get their energy out to the surface by only convention, not radiation. No, brown dwarfs have no "second stage" deuterium burning,  as only primordial deuterium is burnt in brown stars.

If you understand that the heat from a brown dwarf comes from only this nuclear fuel, in very limited supply, not very productive, not very efficient and producing nothing even close to the stellar furnaces of shining stars, I think we can move on to your confusion about the efficiency and speed of convention.
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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2014, 03:47:13 AM »
You've answered your own question: the core of the BD is very hot.  Hot matter travels away from the core and cools in the process.  With less energy to resist the force of gravity it sinks back toward the hot core where it's heated and the process begins again.  That's how convection works.  Dunno where you got the idea that convection causes thermal equilibrium.

This is perfectly consistent with how scientists describe lots of other astronomical objects, including the Earth.  Jupiter's surface, for example, is much colder than ice, yet its core is thought to be 24,000C: http://astronomy.nju.edu.cn/~lixd/GA/AT4/AT411/HTML/AT41102.htm
Tom, you need to listen to this guy. He's spot on and trying hard to help you.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2014, 04:05:12 AM »
The "burning" of deuterium must be a nuclear process. Deuterium is the nuclear fuel when deuterium is burned. So when you wrote "burning of deuterium" you wrote about nuclear fusion. It's that simple.

You may not understand that "burning of deuterium", a isotope of hydrogen, is not like the burning of charcoal. That's a chemical process, called oxidation. Molecular oxygen (typically) from the Earth's atmosphere combines with the longer carbon chains of the charcoal producing ash, heat, and carbon dioxide. Deuterium burning is the fusing of the nuclei of that isotope to form typically an isotope of helium.

I am afraid it is you who needs to be corrected.

I had never even written the words "nuclear fusion" until my last post. If you go back and look at my original posts I believe you will find that I said that Deurerium burning is not "Stellar Fusion". I used that term, Stellar Fusion. Stellar Fusion is the specific stellar nucleosynthesis process which occurs in the sun.

A Brown Dwarf which burns Deurerium is NOT operating via Stellar Fusion.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 04:17:19 AM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2014, 04:07:30 AM »
In fairness, you're sort of right.  Eventually the core of every BD will cool and it will lose its atmosphere and continually approach thermal equilibrium until the universe explodes, and convection is part of that process.  You need to make an argument that it should have happened already.

You've answered your own question: the core of the BD is very hot.  Hot matter travels away from the core and cools in the process.  With less energy to resist the force of gravity it sinks back toward the hot core where it's heated and the process begins again.  That's how convection works.  Dunno where you got the idea that convection causes thermal equilibrium.

Thermodynamics doesn't work that way.

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physical_Chemistry/Thermodynamics/Laws_of_Thermodynamics/0th_Law_of_Thermodynamics
That page doesn't say what you think it does.  Convection most certainly does work as I've described.  It does not cause immediate thermal equilibrium.  Heat is exchanged over time.  You can verify this fact with a pot of hot water and a working stove.

Quote
The Zeroth Law of Thermodynamics states that if two systems are in thermodynamic equilibrium with a third system, the two original systems are in thermal equilibrium with each other. Basically, if system A is in thermal equilibrium with system C and system B is also in thermal equilibrium with system C, system A and system B are in thermal equilibrium with each other.
I don't see the connection to convection.

"If when two bodies are placed in thermal communication neither of them loses or gains heat, the two bodies are said to have equal temperature or the same temperature. The two bodies are then said to be in thermal equilibrium." -- Clerk Maxwell
This quote means that if two systems do not lose or gain heat when in contact with one another, then they must have equal temperatures.  I don't see the connection to convection.  These two systems (the core and the atmosphere) are definitely exchanging heat.  That's what convection is.
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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2014, 04:31:41 AM »
The "burning" of deuterium must be a nuclear process. Deuterium is the nuclear fuel when deuterium is burned. So when you wrote "burning of deuterium" you wrote about nuclear fusion. It's that simple.

You may not understand that "burning of deuterium", a isotope of hydrogen, is not like the burning of charcoal. That's a chemical process, called oxidation. Molecular oxygen (typically) from the Earth's atmosphere combines with the longer carbon chains of the charcoal producing ash, heat, and carbon dioxide. Deuterium burning is the fusing of the nuclei of that isotope to form typically an isotope of helium.

I am afraid it is you who needs to be corrected.

I had never even written the words "nuclear fusion" until my last post. If you go back and look at my original posts I believe you will find that I said that Deurerium burning is not "Stellar Fusion". I used that term, Stellar Fusion. Stellar Fusion is the specific stellar nucleosynthesis process which occurs in the sun.

A Brown Dwarf which burns Deurerium is NOT operating via Stellar Fusion.
But the burning of Deuretium[sic] is burning nuclear fuel, and deuterium burning is not the "first two steps" of stellar fusion, but it is a step, the second one, in stellar fusion.

Let's try this convention example. In an airtight, windowed kitchen with an open oven at 100 degrees Celsius, what is the ambient temperature in the kitchen with the other side of the window being 100 degrees Celsius? 0 degrees Celsius? 0 degree Kelvin?

Now what contrast that to a brown star what is the temperature just outside its surface? Why wouldn't the brown star radiate (in the infrared, as seen by WISE) away its surface heat quickly?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2014, 05:37:00 AM »
But the burning of Deuretium[sic] is burning nuclear fuel

I don't believe I objected otherwise. Again, I hadn't even mentioned the terms "nuclear fuel" or "nuclear fusion" until a few posts ago.

Quote
and deuterium burning is not the "first two steps" of stellar fusion, but it is a step, the second one, in stellar fusion.

The deuterium burn itself is the second step, but to my knowledge the first step, the fusing of hydrogen atoms, still needs to happen the burn to occur as part of the overall process. The hydrogen atoms didn't start off pre-fused.

Quote
Let's try this convention example. In an airtight, windowed kitchen with an open oven at 100 degrees Celsius, what is the ambient temperature in the kitchen with the other side of the window being 100 degrees Celsius? 0 degrees Celsius? 0 degree Kelvin?

Now what contrast that to a brown star what is the temperature just outside its surface? Why wouldn't the brown star radiate (in the infrared, as seen by WISE) away its surface heat quickly?

Much of the heat is pushed back into the core, recycling, via the diagram. Radiation heat does escape at the surface. But in space conduction and convection propagation of heat is almost entirely nonexistent. When compared with convection or conduction, radiating away energy is not an efficient way to cool down an object. It loses energy via radiation, but the rate at which it happens decays exponentially (See: Blackbody Radiation).

Consider the action of of dunking a hot spoon in water. When you dunk it in, the spoons's temperature drops very fast, but with time it'll cool down more slowly (although it is still losing heat). In space, since there is no matter or medium in contact with the material you want to "cool down," there will be no convection or conduction of heat.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2014, 06:07:28 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Gulliver

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2014, 06:54:44 AM »

The deuterium burn itself is the second step, but to my knowledge the first step, the fusing of hydrogen atoms, still needs to happen the burn to occur as part of the overall process. The hydrogen atoms didn't start off pre-fused.

Your knowledge is wrong. In nature the second heaviest hydrogen isotope, deuterium, occurs naturally, from either the Big Bang or other stellar activity. So, yes, there is "pre-fused" hydrogen when the brown stars forms. Brown stars can only burn this isotope as their mass is insufficient to burn the lightest hydrogen isotope. This is my point. Brown stars have little fuel that they can burn.  See table 1 of www.lpi.usra.edu/books/MESSII/9038.pdf , less than one part in 1000 in most cases.


It loses energy via radiation, but the rate at which it happens decays exponentially (See: Blackbody Radiation).

Again, wrong. You've forgotten that the internal convention will continue to heat the surface. If you understood, Newton's Law of Heating, you'd realize that the rate is dependent on the surface temperature. So, it's either cold (already radiated) or still losing the heat at a significant rate.

Radiation moves energy. Radiation decreases the emitter's temperature. The surface of a brown star can be very cold, as the deuterium fuel is expended. How cold would you say a brown star's surface would be if it's down to its last gram of deuterium? How much deuterium is in the brown star WISE J085510.83-071442.5? Can it make any more? How cold would it get once it ran out of deuterium? So even if we gave you the (untrue) assumption of perfect, instantaneous convention, wouldn't a brown star still cool to near absolute zero as its fuel is exhausted? You mentioned the "black box" though experiment. Do it for yourself. What happens to a brown star's surface temperature as it expends the last of its fuel. No internal heating means no surface heating. Yet the surface radiates heat into space, cooling the brown star. Tell me that's simple enough that you understand now.
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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2014, 11:49:17 AM »
Hydrogen, Deuterium and Lithium were created in the Big Bang.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Astronomers found a star colder than ice
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2014, 01:19:40 PM »
You've answered your own question: the core of the BD is very hot.  Hot matter travels away from the core and cools in the process.  With less energy to resist the force of gravity it sinks back toward the hot core where it's heated and the process begins again.  That's how convection works.  Dunno where you got the idea that convection causes thermal equilibrium.

Thermodynamics doesn't work that way.

http://chemwiki.ucdavis.edu/Physical_Chemistry/Thermodynamics/Laws_of_Thermodynamics/0th_Law_of_Thermodynamics



    "If when two bodies are placed in thermal communication neither of them loses or gains heat, the two bodies are said to have equal temperature or the same temperature. The two bodies are then said to be in thermal equilibrium." -- Clerk Maxwell
Tom, that's for a closed system.  I hardly think that a brown dwarf star that is burning deuterium in its core and radiating heat into space qualifies as a closed system.  Also, you fail to consider that the brow dwarf could radiate heat out into space faster than the convection can carry the heat from the core.
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