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Offline Parsifal

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #160 on: March 07, 2017, 12:56:16 PM »
I didn't know the ships varied so much. This is going to be a great game when it's done. How many ships do you have so far?

I only have two (Avenger Titan and Freelancer), and will probably be buying a limited one (Dragonfly or maybe a Hull series) whenever there's another sale. I am a subscriber, though, which means I get to fly a different ship for free each month, which is a nice perk.

At this point I've bought a new space suit and explored all the jump points on Crusader.

There are no jump points in the game yet. A jump point is what you use to travel between systems, and currently you can only play in a small part of one system; quantum drive is for sub-light travel within a system, and that's what you can use now. The points you have available to travel to are saved coordinates in your ship's computer, and those will vary depending on what missions you've taken and other factors (for instance, if you have a crime stat then you can quantum to the outlaw base, GrimHEX).

The parts of the game that aren't bugged to hell are breathtaking. I explored an area with an asteroid belt and was able to land on one of the larger ones.

That sounds like the Yela asteroid belt. Did you find the GrimHEX outlaw base among the asteroids? If not, you can always just commit a crime and then die to respawn there.

I also got a ride from a guy with a giant red ship (can't remember the name). Took about 20 minutes to find an exit since I entered through an engineering bay and I was never able to find the access point again. It also had a little console that let you redirect power to the main systems of the ship.

The only vaguely red, flight-ready, multicrew ship I'm aware of is the Caterpillar Pirate Edition.

All of the ships in the game right now are tiny compared to the capital ships that haven't been released yet. Squadron 42 will feature the Idris and the Javelin, which are both enormous military ships comparable to the likes of the USS Enterprise or Battlestar Galactica. The Bengal is bigger and slower yet, taking the honour of the largest UEE (human) ship, but the largest ship in the game will be the Vanduul Kingship at 3 kilometres long.

Edit: Here's a size comparison for a bunch of ships: https://robertsspaceindustries.com/community/citizen-spotlight/1574-Ship-Size-Comparison

Like you said, I probably should have opted for a more advanced ship since mine only has 2 basic laser canons, and no missiles, which makes shooting people down pretty hard.

You can upgrade at any time. You can also change your weapon loadout by renting ship weapons with REC -- weapons bought with REC and equipped to ships appear in the PU, but ships bought with REC can't be flown in the PU.

Supposedly, they're going to start making ships buyable with in-game currency before the end of this year, though they've sprinted past so many deadlines already that I'll believe that when it happens.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 01:02:10 PM by Parsifal »
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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #161 on: March 10, 2017, 11:00:52 AM »
I've been getting tremendous lag and FPS drops in the PU. At first I thought it was my PC, but Arena Commander runs at 60 fps. Apparently the client-server optimizations are horrendous in the game's current state. If I'm understanding it right, every action I take gets sent to SC servers and is then sent to every other player in the PU regardless of distance. I read that a big ship loading in needs to send about 5MB worth of data to every player. That is huge when there are many other players constantly spawning ships, shooting, and jumping too.

The supposed solution is for players to only receive data from other players in the immediate area, rather than from the entire instance. But, won't large ship battles still be an issue? I see this as the biggest problem facing SC right now. If they can't iron this out the game will be dead in the water.

I'm no networking expert, so does anyone else have any input? How feasible would it be to optimize a game this huge to the point where massive space battles will run smoothly? I feel like it would behoove the dev team to fix this quickly because they are undoubtedly spending more on bandwidth with optimization this poor.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2017, 11:06:29 AM by Hollocron »

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #162 on: March 10, 2017, 12:21:47 PM »
I've been getting tremendous lag and FPS drops in the PU. At first I thought it was my PC, but Arena Commander runs at 60 fps. Apparently the client-server optimizations are horrendous in the game's current state. If I'm understanding it right, every action I take gets sent to SC servers and is then sent to every other player in the PU regardless of distance. I read that a big ship loading in needs to send about 5MB worth of data to every player. That is huge when there are many other players constantly spawning ships, shooting, and jumping too.

The supposed solution is for players to only receive data from other players in the immediate area, rather than from the entire instance. But, won't large ship battles still be an issue? I see this as the biggest problem facing SC right now. If they can't iron this out the game will be dead in the water.

I'm no networking expert, so does anyone else have any input? How feasible would it be to optimize a game this huge to the point where massive space battles will run smoothly? I feel like it would behoove the dev team to fix this quickly because they are undoubtedly spending more on bandwidth with optimization this poor.

Yes, this is currently a big issue for them. 3.0 promises to remedy a lot of the network issues, but as you say, large ship battles are something they're yet to solve.
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Offline crutonius

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #163 on: March 10, 2017, 10:18:45 PM »
I seriously hope they succeed.  The game sounds amazing.  But until they support VR I'm out.  A space sim without VR is a waste.

Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #164 on: March 11, 2017, 10:11:08 AM »
I've been getting tremendous lag and FPS drops in the PU. At first I thought it was my PC, but Arena Commander runs at 60 fps. Apparently the client-server optimizations are horrendous in the game's current state. If I'm understanding it right, every action I take gets sent to SC servers and is then sent to every other player in the PU regardless of distance. I read that a big ship loading in needs to send about 5MB worth of data to every player. That is huge when there are many other players constantly spawning ships, shooting, and jumping too.

The supposed solution is for players to only receive data from other players in the immediate area, rather than from the entire instance. But, won't large ship battles still be an issue? I see this as the biggest problem facing SC right now. If they can't iron this out the game will be dead in the water.

I'm no networking expert, so does anyone else have any input? How feasible would it be to optimize a game this huge to the point where massive space battles will run smoothly? I feel like it would behoove the dev team to fix this quickly because they are undoubtedly spending more on bandwidth with optimization this poor.

Yes, this is currently a big issue for them. 3.0 promises to remedy a lot of the network issues, but as you say, large ship battles are something they're yet to solve.

There will probably be no way to fix big ship battles. People with higher latency are going to have a really bad time. Even in games like WoW (with far less bandwidth requirements) massive battles (80+ players) have crashed servers before. It took Blizzard awhile to nail down their optimizations and it's still not perfect.

I think in the end they may have to implement some type of instancing tech to keep at least part of the vision alive. This is how Blizzard mostly solved their infamous server crashes. For example, the space surrounding a planet and the planet below could be separate instances or something. But let's be honest, we're never going to see 100 v 100 battles or anything like that unless they invent some groundbreaking new server code.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 10:20:47 AM by Hollocron »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #165 on: March 11, 2017, 04:32:32 PM »
Eve Online seems to have mass combat solved although I can't imagine a battle happening at 1/10th speed is any fun to be in.
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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #166 on: March 11, 2017, 06:54:23 PM »
Eve Online seems to have mass combat solved although I can't imagine a battle happening at 1/10th speed is any fun to be in.

As far as I know, Eve is like WoW where only rudimentary data like movement and damage is handled by the server.

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #167 on: March 11, 2017, 09:39:12 PM »
I think in the end they may have to implement some type of instancing tech to keep at least part of the vision alive. This is how Blizzard mostly solved their infamous server crashes. For example, the space surrounding a planet and the planet below could be separate instances or something. But let's be honest, we're never going to see 100 v 100 battles or anything like that unless they invent some groundbreaking new server code.

They will be using instancing. But they still want to try to have large battles be a thing. I'm not sure if they'll manage, but I also don't really care that much since I'm not all that interested in combat.
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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #168 on: March 11, 2017, 10:21:57 PM »
Star citizen is crowd funded, not investor backed. As with your very own flat earth comic, the law does not do anything to enforce delivery of a product with crowd funding.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39191064
Its a story that happens over and over.

I don't think star citizen will ever see the light of day.

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #169 on: March 11, 2017, 10:32:49 PM »
Star citizen is crowd funded, not investor backed. As with your very own flat earth comic, the law does not do anything to enforce delivery of a product with crowd funding.

We have nothing to do with the Flat Earth comic you are referring to, apart from linking to it as it is likely to be of interest here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-39191064
Its a story that happens over and over.

Generally when this sort of thing happens, the project goes silent about progress for a while before it gets dumped. Star Citizen has been anything but silent; they are now producing at least four YouTube videos every week covering various aspects of the game's development. While it is true that they have failed to deliver on numerous deadlines, they have not yet given up on delivery of a single feature, and are now being more transparent than ever about their timelines for delivery.

I don't think star citizen will ever see the light of day.

While you may be correct, there is no reason to suppose that you are, given how well the project is progressing thus far.
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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #170 on: March 11, 2017, 10:42:35 PM »
I'm aware the FE comic isn't yours as per the thread. But your members did put money behind it expecting to receive a copy or playing cards or whatever. They didn't get it, it all went quiet and their money was stolen. That isn't your fault, but a lack of legal safeguards and the lack of moral integrity of the comic maker.

I hear what you are saying about star citizen not going quiet, but if the money coming in from new ships is still exceeding the production costs of 4 youtube videos per week, it doesn't need to.

I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that crowd funding isn't something I would do due to lack of consumer safeguards. If a product has a proper business model, investors will back it. The cynic in me fears those who bought into star citizen will get burned and no one will be held to account. As the world record crowd fund, if it does go pop, that might be the final nail in crowd funding before governments move to legislate ... but that isn't going to bring Jonny his pocket money back.

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #171 on: March 11, 2017, 11:06:55 PM »
I suppose the point I'm trying to make is that crowd funding isn't something I would do due to lack of consumer safeguards. If a product has a proper business model, investors will back it. The cynic in me fears those who bought into star citizen will get burned and no one will be held to account. As the world record crowd fund, if it does go pop, that might be the final nail in crowd funding before governments move to legislate ... but that isn't going to bring Jonny his pocket money back.

Of course that can happen. I just don't think it's reasonable to assume that it will happen, given progress to date.

The whole point of crowdfunding Star Citizen is that it is dreaming big, no matter how long it takes to deliver. Nobody wants to invest in a game that is trying something on a scale nobody has before with no guarantee on a return date. Frustrated space sim players that want something bigger and better, on the other hand, would jump (and have jumped) at the chance. If that doesn't describe you, nobody is forcing you to back the game.

Everyone who has bought into the game knew what they were getting into (or should have known, unless they didn't actually read the disclaimer they had to agree to which says the game is in development, etc.). If it fails and they get nothing for their money, that's just the risk they took.

At the risk of turning this into a political discussion, I don't think it's reasonable to want the government to absolve crowdfunding backers of the consequences of their own decisions. If you don't like crowdfunding, simply don't back crowdfunded projects.
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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #172 on: March 11, 2017, 11:34:22 PM »
I think crowdfunding provides opportunity for entrepreneurs to get products realised when no investor would touch the business model. And that's not to say they don't have a good idea. But I think if you go down this route, you need to be liable for the money you have taken. Otherwise it is theft. You promised a product and didn't deliver it.

Were I supreme overlord of the world, I would permit crowd funding but I would limit it to small businesses. Max limit of $100,000 and you are liable for full refund if you don't deliver the product you described. You aren't allowed to steal investor money, why the public's? I take particular exception to crowd funding because so many of the products are aimed at kids. Toys, games, apps, comics etc. So your argument to say "these people knew what they were getting in to" doesn't really hold much legal sway. Children are not allowed to invest in business by law, or gamble or commit to contracts. Because they lack the judgement and business sense to do so. I am of the opinion that the law is there to protect people and crowd funding lacks adequate protection. I would say no more than $100,000, a delivery no later than 2 years. If the product is not delivered in 2 years, a class action on behalf of all the 'investors' should be initiated to recover the full costs + statutory judgment interest rate for High Court judgments is 8% + court costs (of course all only if you lose the case as the product maker). I would also insist that all 'donations' were made via credit card to ensure adulthood. No debit transactions.

If your project is larger than $100,000 and takes longer than 2 years, you aren't a small business with a first time product and you should be lower risk. If you can't get adequate investment from banks and professional backers, you don't have a business as it has always been, nor should you try to be exempt from paying real investors their percentage of equity in your business.

I understand you don't want to make this political, but being as their is no tangible product to discuss, there isn't much left. But I've had my say now and will let the thread return to dreams of spaceships and the best game ever created.

« Last Edit: March 11, 2017, 11:49:49 PM by Screamer »

Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #173 on: March 12, 2017, 01:45:55 AM »
As Parsifal said, the backer is responsible. It's unfortunate that some people decided to spend thousands on SC packages and didn't bother to read the fine print. But whether they get their pledge refunded or not is at the discretion of CIG.

You only have to spend $45 if you want to help the development of the game and get a little sneak peak into the gameplay. No one said you have spend thousands.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 01:47:32 AM by Hollocron »

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #174 on: April 14, 2017, 06:28:18 PM »


Lots of nice updates and displays of newer features. Also, a really big look into the Aegis Javelin.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2017, 06:31:59 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #175 on: April 15, 2017, 12:55:58 AM »
Star Citizen sucks lol
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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #176 on: April 15, 2017, 03:53:05 AM »
Please make sure to check out these resources to ensure that your time at tfes.org is enjoyable and productive.

1. The Rules

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You're doing God's work, junker.

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Offline Rushy

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Offline Parsifal

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #178 on: April 15, 2017, 02:58:05 PM »
Star Citizen doesn't suck, Rushy is just playing it wrong by buying all the ships you can't fly yet.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Star Citizen
« Reply #179 on: April 16, 2017, 12:04:27 AM »
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/schedule-report

This is the schedule for the next patch and what's left to be done. Also, this:

Quote
ALREADY COMPLETE AND IN 3.0.0 BRANCH:

GRAPHICS

RenderTarget refactor
This saves over 50% of video memory usage.
Area Lights with proper shadowing
Shadow System refactor
This is more efficient and allows for planetary scale shadows.

DESIGN

Crusader Converted to Object Container Setup
With the transition to Object Containers, the Crusader map was completely re-designed. Each Point of interest is now an object container laid out via the Solar System Editor. This is in preparation for Object Container streaming and seamless transitions from different POI’s and between Star Systems. Mission Flowgraphs are converted over to use Subsumption and the new Mission System
Mega Map for Persistent Universe
Mega Map tech (also used in Crusader for seamless loading between different gamemodes) is now possible in the new PU map, which is setup in the solar system editor. This allows the utilization of Mega Map technology.
Revamp of Power Plants / Shield Generators / Coolers and the Heat & Power System for improved gameplay and conversion to Item 2.0

ENVIRONMENT

Modular Room System for procedural generation of planetary outposts
Official Outpost Spawning System ready for mission designers
Integrated Outpost distribution to PlanetEd
Single outpost Object Preset
Cluster of Outposts
Crash site mission
Interface to hand place modules and save to Layer
Interface to teleport the camera to the closest outpost
Area boxes created by artists (all room sizes are now usable in the outpost procedural system)
Entrance Room system working (stairs and ramps are now available as initial rooms)
Rooftop Prop system working for Solar panel
Wall prop system working for additional prop variations
Material Wear/Dirt on props using Layer Blend done and actually working
Developed Outpost “feet” system
Set random rotation and offset caps on planet editor
Start documenting 3 possible map layouts looping system (using 2 or 4 meters metrics * system; using connection additional corridor pieces; using spline skinned corridors)
Support Aircon/solar panel system on outposts
Added color tinting to Outposts
Added color tinting interface to Planet Ed
Created material distinction for interior / exteriors
Group elements offset in Planet Object Preset to be able to offset landing pads

TOOLS

Solar System Editor
A tool that will layout entire solar system with their astral objects (sun, planets moons) as well as space stations, etc.

PERFORMANCE

New Light Controller for runtime light switches
New network message queue (current in QATR) to reduce network bandwidth and network thread time.
Light Entity Render node merging.
Dynamic Physics Grid to support sparse space areas vs. dense areas like space stations.
Highly optimized vertex and position format for all geometry
Texture memory usage reduced across the project
Unified material libraries for use across all departments
Comparing and finding all duplicated normal maps and albedo maps in the LayerBlend texture library
Clean up LayerBlend Material Libraries, Resolution Adjustments, Renames to Lower Case
Follow-ups on list of unused textures and materials
Massively improved LOD computation and average face sizes for ships
Shared hair assets (instead of bespoke asset per head) for character creation
Automated facial asset LODs, skinning algorithm per lod updated.
Reworked mesh setup of facial assets for optimal performance and reduced drawcalls.
Unified helmet and character mesh into singular render proxy for better performance and visuals.
Various portal and culling improvements.
Improved Animation Data Base collection and build process for optimized animation data streaming also added external tools to manage this.
Deprecated thousands of legacy and test assets including animations, geometry, libraries and more for reduced build size.
Automatic Asset Error collection and tracking.
Reworked itemport layout for characters and character items
Updated all assets using HumanSkin to highly optimized HumanSkinv2 shader. This saves upwards of a 100 megs of texture memory per face.

ART

New Assets:
Heavy Marine Armor
Explorer Suit Armor
Cloth and Clothing simulation on various assets old and new
Updated helmet interiors and exterior for updated art, FOV tech and standardization
Armor converted to work within modular customization structure
Finalized delivery of ALL facial assets from 3lateral.
Ships:
New Skinning and Rigging tools for landing gear on ships.
Constellation Cargo Bay/Elevator extensions
Light Group entity optimization

CODE

New Radar Databank
Subsumption
This is the initial release of the foundational technology that drives all of the AI, mission, dynamic content, and conversational logic. The mission content previously created with FlowGraph has been replaced and the implementation time to achieve a desired effect has been cut dramatically.
Various Performance improvements
Planetary Physics Grid to support orbiting and rotating planets
MFD implementation for Item 2.0 Components on ships
IFCS improvements to support AI & Takeoff System
Unified Visor for seamless Ship 2.0 / FPS transition
HUD/Visor integration for new Radar Databank
Vehicles No Longer Use Lua
This is a huge step forward on the code side.
Skeleton Extension support for Item Port Offset overrides per item
Numerous types of physics simulation for all Item 2.0 attachments including hair, weapons, grenades and more.
Destructible component for items, props and environment assets
Nested Physics Grids support for vehicle transportation inside large ships, i.e. DragonFly & Rover
Physics simulation gravity vector now respects planetary gravity
Modular loadouts rule sets and support for up to five loadouts
Animation driven facial audio implemented
Updated Sandbox Editor Python integration.
Zone culling on all character assets and layers, system complete and mesh markup complete supplemented with tools to easily support new assets.

The next update to Star Citizen will be the biggest it's ever had. This will make or break the game and the set the pace going forward (again). If these features are implemented properly Star Citizen will have a glorious future. If we get another buggy mess, it's going to be downhill from here.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 12:06:51 AM by Rushy »