Offline Mock

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Please, before commenting, at the very least read the summary and below. I know it's a lot of text, but it's important.

So, on the Ice Wall map / Azimuthal Equidistant Projection map. I'm sure y'all know which one I mean.
People have flown over Antarctica, and the flight distances on the southern hemiplane are way too big - let alone the fact that if it were true, planes wouldn't fly the routes they fly, but shorter ones without unnecessary arcs. It's been discussed in countless of threads.

Then there's the newer, bipolar map with Antarctica as an actual continent - yay! But with this model, there's absolutely NO explanation for people travelling from the USA to Japan in the comparatively small amount of time that is observed, since they would have to fly over the Atlantic, Europe and most of Asia.

Also, the map clearly shows there is something "south" of the South Pole, which is contradictory. It's also not how magnetic fields work. There would be large spaces of sea where a compass needle simply would do nothing at all, or just point away from the South Pole - but in this model, the direction opposite south apparently doesn't have to be north. This is in direct contradiction to what is observed everywhere on Earth. And yes, I know the geographic and magnetic South Pole are two different locations, but this problem arises no matter where specifically locate the south pole, as long as it is a fixed point. Compass readings would never be accurate whenever you are east or west of 0° longitude.



To summarize:
The Antarctica as Ice Wall model cannot be true because (among other reasons, I'm sure I'm missing some)
 - there would be bizarrely unrealistic flight durations and routes on the Southern Hemiplane, no matter where specifically the continents are located. If anyone can come up with a map where routes and distances actually behave even roughly like they do in real life, by all means enlighten us.
 - Antarctica is an actual continent, not a huge ring of ice. You can visit it, and you can fly over it, and it's all been done before. If Antarctica is observed to NOT be an Ice Wall along the edge of Earth, then where could it possibly be located in this model so that everything (compass needles / the magnetic south pole; distance from other places) still approximately matches up? It's just not possible. Again, if you disagree, give me evidence (read: a map where it works).

The Two Pole model I've seen around lately cannot be true either, because
 - There's stretches of sea (and islands) "south" (further down on a map) of the South Pole. Where does a compass needle point? North? In that case, the other readings on the compass are not correct, which is not what is observed in real life in those places. Does it just point straight away from the south pole because of magnetic repulsion of the magnetized needle? In that case, again, it doesn't point north, which is not what is observed, either. And don't tell me it's because the actual magnetic south pole is somewhere else, because we know where it is, and it's on (or extremely near) Antarctica, not far off at the South End of the World.
 - There's the unfixable issue that you have to fly over the Atlantic and Europe to get to Japan, and even if you relocate stuff on the map (because people repeatedly say those are just models of how it could be, not maps), there's always the issue of planes on the west end of the Western Hemiplane having to fly over all of the rest of the world to reach the eastern edge of the Eastern Hemiplane. This is the case with all FE maps where neither of the Poles is in the center, and no amount of relocating continents can fix that, so the Bipolar Model CANNOT POSSIBLY be accurate. You should stop using it.

Please note what I am arguing here. This post is NOT trying to disprove FE theory. What I wanted to convey is that both models FE theory has at this moment for what the world roughly looks are not compatible with our observations of this world. My conclusion out of this is NOT that the Earth is round, but that your top priority at this moment should be finding a model of the Flat Earth that is actually in accordance with the real world. Again, I am not talking about specific distances and traveling times and stuff that can be fixed by relocating the continents. I am pointing out fundamental flaws in the very nature of the existing models.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Please, before commenting, at the very least read the summary and below. I know it's a lot of text, but it's important.

So, on the Ice Wall map / Azimuthal Equidistant Projection map. I'm sure y'all know which one I mean.
People have flown over Antarctica, and the flight distances on the southern hemiplane are way too big - let alone the fact that if it were true, planes wouldn't fly the routes they fly, but shorter ones without unnecessary arcs. It's been discussed in countless of threads.

Then there's the newer, bipolar map with Antarctica as an actual continent - yay! But with this model, there's absolutely NO explanation for people travelling from the USA to Japan in the comparatively small amount of time that is observed, since they would have to fly over the Atlantic, Europe and most of Asia.

Also, the map clearly shows there is something "south" of the South Pole, which is contradictory. It's also not how magnetic fields work. There would be large spaces of sea where a compass needle simply would do nothing at all, or just point away from the South Pole - but in this model, the direction opposite south apparently doesn't have to be north. This is in direct contradiction to what is observed everywhere on Earth. And yes, I know the geographic and magnetic South Pole are two different locations, but this problem arises no matter where specifically locate the south pole, as long as it is a fixed point. Compass readings would never be accurate whenever you are east or west of 0° longitude.



To summarize:
The Antarctica as Ice Wall model cannot be true because (among other reasons, I'm sure I'm missing some)
 - there would be bizarrely unrealistic flight durations and routes on the Southern Hemiplane, no matter where specifically the continents are located. If anyone can come up with a map where routes and distances actually behave even roughly like they do in real life, by all means enlighten us.
 - Antarctica is an actual continent, not a huge ring of ice. You can visit it, and you can fly over it, and it's all been done before. If Antarctica is observed to NOT be an Ice Wall along the edge of Earth, then where could it possibly be located in this model so that everything (compass needles / the magnetic south pole; distance from other places) still approximately matches up? It's just not possible. Again, if you disagree, give me evidence (read: a map where it works).

The Two Pole model I've seen around lately cannot be true either, because
 - There's stretches of sea (and islands) "south" (further down on a map) of the South Pole. Where does a compass needle point? North? In that case, the other readings on the compass are not correct, which is not what is observed in real life in those places. Does it just point straight away from the south pole because of magnetic repulsion of the magnetized needle? In that case, again, it doesn't point north, which is not what is observed, either. And don't tell me it's because the actual magnetic south pole is somewhere else, because we know where it is, and it's on (or extremely near) Antarctica, not far off at the South End of the World.
 - There's the unfixable issue that you have to fly over the Atlantic and Europe to get to Japan, and even if you relocate stuff on the map (because people repeatedly say those are just models of how it could be, not maps), there's always the issue of planes on the west end of the Western Hemiplane having to fly over all of the rest of the world to reach the eastern edge of the Eastern Hemiplane. This is the case with all FE maps where neither of the Poles is in the center, and no amount of relocating continents can fix that, so the Bipolar Model CANNOT POSSIBLY be accurate. You should stop using it.

Please note what I am arguing here. This post is NOT trying to disprove FE theory. What I wanted to convey is that both models FE theory has at this moment for what the world roughly looks are not compatible with our observations of this world. My conclusion out of this is NOT that the Earth is round, but that your top priority at this moment should be finding a model of the Flat Earth that is actually in accordance with the real world. Again, I am not talking about specific distances and traveling times and stuff that can be fixed by relocating the continents. I am pointing out fundamental flaws in the very nature of the existing models.

Great timing for your post.  We are actually working out a model in this thread.  https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6633.0

If a flat map is possible it will come to light.  If not it will be obvious.  It's not an argument thread but a compilation of indisputable facts.  Come join in.



The distance from New York to Paris is unknown.

I do not have the bandwidth to maintain a conversation with you.

Offline Hmmm

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Mock,
there is an ukrainian youtuber, who tries to find out the real map layout of the world, basing on Slavic Aryan vedas, Indian vedas, ancient slavic fairytales(not joking!), ancient maps, his own intuition, claircognizance(almost the same as intuition, but, as i think, more empowered by ...).
He has a theory i wrote about a while back.
 
Quote
Great timing for your post.
And i've just stumbled upon a video about moon having an overlay of earth's true map... Just imagine if this is true, and if the real map is floating in the sky on the face of the moon, and nobody from flat earthers pays attention to it. Yet we're not even questioning the flat earth map for its flaws.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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The Two Pole model I've seen around lately cannot be true either, because
 - There's stretches of sea (and islands) "south" (further down on a map) of the South Pole. Where does a compass needle point? North? In that case, the other readings on the compass are not correct, which is not what is observed in real life in those places. Does it just point straight away from the south pole because of magnetic repulsion of the magnetized needle? In that case, again, it doesn't point north, which is not what is observed, either. And don't tell me it's because the actual magnetic south pole is somewhere else, because we know where it is, and it's on (or extremely near) Antarctica, not far off at the South End of the World.
 - There's the unfixable issue that you have to fly over the Atlantic and Europe to get to Japan, and even if you relocate stuff on the map (because people repeatedly say those are just models of how it could be, not maps), there's always the issue of planes on the west end of the Western Hemiplane having to fly over all of the rest of the world to reach the eastern edge of the Eastern Hemiplane. This is the case with all FE maps where neither of the Poles is in the center, and no amount of relocating continents can fix that, so the Bipolar Model CANNOT POSSIBLY be accurate. You should stop using it.

The magnetic field lines in the Bi-Polar model looks like a bar magnet:



N is over the North Pole, and S is over the South Pole (It was discovered that the North Pole is technically the South Pole, but that is unimportant). Wherever you are, the compass will align with the field lines. The needle will point towards the North Pole in the North and it will point towards the South Pole in the South. Traveling Eastwards in the North will take you in a circle around the North Pole and traveling Eastwards in the South will take you in a circle around the South Pole.

A true bi-polar map and continental layout is unknown and unstudied, but traveling between the US to Japan under that hypothetical layout does not take a path over Asia. Traveling Eastwards or Westwards would cause an arc around the North Pole.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2017, 10:58:49 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Mock

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And i've just stumbled upon a video about moon having an overlay of earth's true map... Just imagine if this is true, and if the real map is floating in the sky on the face of the moon, and nobody from flat earthers pays attention to it. Yet we're not even questioning the flat earth map for its flaws.
What the bloody hell is that guy even talking about? Moon doesn't reflect Earth like a mirror - neither in RE, nor in FE theory. This "map" is just the Moon's natural rock formations. You can actually verify this yourself with a telescope.

I just noticed the video's category is Comedy. Explains a lot, doesn't it?

Offline Mock

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The magnetic field lines in that model looks like a bar magnet



N is over the North Pole, and S is over the South Pole (It was discovered that the North Pole is technically the South Pole, but that is unimportant). Wherever you are, the compass will align with the field lines. The needle will always point towards the North Pole in the North and it will always point towards the South Pole in the South.
Excuse me, but do you even know how a compass works? The needle doesn't simply point to the nearest magnetic pole. The needle is actually magnetized itself (Proof), so the pointy end (most often red) will ALWAYS point north, unless you're too close to another magnet or are actually standing ON TOP OF one of Earth's magnetic poles. This is an observed fact.

What's true is that in the Southern Hemiplane, the bottom end of the needle would point towards the South Pole due to being magnetically attracted. The front part of the needle wouldn't point to the North Pole, though. This is contradictory to what is actually observed.

Also, it still doesn't solve the problem that there is an area to the south of the South Pole and north of the North Pole. Look at the field lines at the very tips of your bar magnet and imagine a magnetized compass needle a few inches to the right and above the bar magnet's North Pole. Now ask yourself, where would it point? And is this what is observed in our world?

Basically, in your model the s-pole of your compass needle will point north in the Northern Hemiplane, but the other side would at the same time not necessarily point south. This basically renders your compass useless for anything but locating the poles, and that is assuming you know which Hemiplane you are in.

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Offline TomInAustin

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Mock,
there is an ukrainian youtuber, who tries to find out the real map layout of the world, basing on Slavic Aryan vedas, Indian vedas, ancient slavic fairytales(not joking!), ancient maps, his own intuition, claircognizance(almost the same as intuition, but, as i think, more empowered by ...).
He has a theory i wrote about a while back.
 
Quote
Great timing for your post.
And i've just stumbled upon a video about moon having an overlay of earth's true map... Just imagine if this is true, and if the real map is floating in the sky on the face of the moon, and nobody from flat earthers pays attention to it. Yet we're not even questioning the flat earth map for its flaws.

Hey, go over to debate forum and look at the "Using airline flight data" thread.  Maybe you can add to the discussion. 
The distance from New York to Paris is unknown.

I do not have the bandwidth to maintain a conversation with you.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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That is not true. If you have two bar magnets the two North ends will not always be pointing at each other. It is possible for the South ends to be in closer proximity and stronger connected.

What's true is that in the Southern Hemiplane, the bottom end of the needle would point towards the South Pole due to being magnetically attracted. The front part of the needle wouldn't point to the North Pole, though. This is contradictory to what is actually observed.

Yes, the North end of the compass will not point towards to the North Pole, but if you follow the direction of North on the compass it will eventually curve back to the North Pole, since the field lines change as you travel.

Quote
Also, it still doesn't solve the problem that there is an area to the south of the South Pole and north of the North Pole. Look at the field lines at the very tips of your bar magnet and imagine a magnetized compass needle a few inches to the right and above the bar magnet's North Pole. Now ask yourself, where would it point? And is this what is observed in our world?

The magnetic field lines have been experienced to be radiating away from the North Pole. I don't see what the issue is.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2017, 12:23:00 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Mock

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It can be observed that on a normal compass with a magnetized needle, whenever one end points towards the North Pole, the other points towards the South Pole and vice versa. With the bipolar FE model that gets promoted on here, this is clearly not always the case, as demonstrated by the above image I made using your bar magnet graphic for the field lines. At the bottom left position, for example, one end would clearly be attracted by the nearby South Pole, but the other certainly doesn't point north. Same with the far right position, just the other way around. This doesn't occur in real life.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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[It can be observed that on a normal compass with a magnetized needle, whenever one end points towards the North Pole, the other points towards the South Pole and vice versa.

Who observed that?

Offline Mock

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It's common knowledge. Since I assume you don't have a compass handy, unlock your iPhone. Open the Compass app. You'll notice it works just like a real one. You'll also notice that "N" for north is at a 180 degree angle to "S" for south, and they don't change positions. This means that at any given position, if you face North and turn 180 degrees you'll face South. This is clearly not the case in the bipolar FE model, as I have illustrated:

At the position on the left, you actually get a very acute angle from North to South and certainly not 180 degrees. Ask yourself: What direction is West? To assert that the BP model is correct would be to assert there are points on Earth that inherently give inaccurate compass readings because of their position in the geomagnetic field (excluding the Poles, but that should be really obvious). The burden of proof is on you.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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It's common knowledge.

I see. Then I suppose that we have nothing further to discuss, since truth is based on popular authority.

Offline Mock

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It's common knowledge.

I see. Then I suppose that we have nothing further to discuss, since truth is based on popular authority.
Come on, you just ignored everything else to focus on those three words instead? We have plenty to discuss. Just read the rest of the post and don't run away from the discussion because I assumed you know what a compass looks like and how it works. Excuse me, but that is common knowledge.

Offline Smokified

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It's common knowledge.

I see. Then I suppose that we have nothing further to discuss, since truth is based on popular authority.

lol...nice cop out, once again.  Aren't you a little too old to be acting like a little child?

Popular authority has nothing at all to do with this.  We are talking about direct observations...ones that you can make for yourself.

Be honest, do you know you are dodging these conversations and actually believing people are buying it, or do you really have no idea what you are doing here?