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Online Tom Bishop

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Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« on: August 09, 2017, 10:04:28 PM »
According to Round Earth Theory the sun is illuminating the earth and moon as in this top-down view:



However, it has been observed that during the day, on the "day" side of the earth, the moon can be seen with phases which show significant lit area.

It should be impossible for the moon's phase to display significant fullness during the day. But the moon is seen on many occasions to do just that. Here is an example which should be impossible under the Round Earth model:



In the video the author pans across to the sun, showing that it is significantly above the horizon. This person is clearly somewhere on the day side of the earth. How is this observation possible?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 10:48:46 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2017, 10:24:55 PM »
The scale of your diagram is wrong, earth radius 6371km, moon distance 384,400 km, moon radius 1737km.

Redraw!

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2017, 10:47:00 PM »
The scale of your diagram is wrong, earth radius 6371km, moon distance 384,400 km, moon radius 1737km.

Redraw!

Here is the Earth and Moon to scale in RET:



How does this help you? It still does not make the phase which was seen possible.

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2017, 11:14:31 PM »
According to Round Earth Theory the sun is illuminating the earth and moon as in this top-down view:



However, it has been observed that during the day, on the "day" side of the earth, the moon can be seen with phases which show significant lit area.

It should be impossible for the moon's phase to display significant fullness during the day. But the moon is seen on many occasions to do just that. Here is an example which should be impossible under the Round Earth model:



In the video the author pans across to the sun, showing that it is significantly above the horizon. This person is clearly somewhere on the day side of the earth. How is this observation possible?
This isn't impossible. At all. Should I break out the math and attempt a diagram? Once again, out of time at the moment, but I'll get to it later unless someone else tackles this very simple problem first. I just don't have the time to work the math and make a diagram right now.
FET - A few old books making claims and telling you how things must be based on the words contained therein. This sounds familiar....

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2017, 11:24:52 PM »
Yes, please post us your diagram where a stick figure is 30,000 miles tall and looking around the curvature of the earth. We can't wait to see it!

Please keep in mind that the horizon looks like this in Round Earth Theory:

« Last Edit: August 09, 2017, 11:42:50 PM by Tom Bishop »

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2017, 11:35:38 PM »
Here is the Earth and Moon to scale in RET:



How does this help you? It still does not make the phase which was seen possible.

incline the moon by ~5 deg. 
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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2017, 11:36:57 PM »
incline the moon by ~5 deg.

Why? It still doesn't help you. There is no possible way for that phase to appear, no matter where the Moon is located over the day side of the earth.

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2017, 11:54:22 PM »
incline the moon by ~5 deg.

Why? It still doesn't help you. There is no possible way for that phase to appear, no matter where the Moon is located over the day side of the earth.



imagine a person standing at the "top" of the earth.  the sun is in view.  the moon is in view.  the moon is full.  solved.

btw at what time of day was this video captured?
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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2017, 12:30:56 AM »
incline the moon by ~5 deg.

Why? It still doesn't help you. There is no possible way for that phase to appear, no matter where the Moon is located over the day side of the earth.



imagine a person standing at the "top" of the earth.  the sun is in view.  the moon is in view.  the moon is full.  solved.

btw at what time of day was this video captured?

This diagram does not explain what is happening. The sun is not intersecting the horizon in that video, like it is in the diagram you posted, it is in the sky.

And if you rotate the sun upwards to be higher in the sky in that illustration, the blue line of the ecliptic will rotate downwards, and that will cause the moon will move downwards. That explanation is not possible at all (not to mention that the observer is not at the North Pole).

Care to try another explanation?

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #9 on: August 10, 2017, 12:41:33 AM »
no other explanation is required.  you haven't shown an anomaly. 

watch the video, and then check the diagram.  ret predicts that some latitudes should occasionally observe a nearly-full moon around sunset/sunrise when both are near the horizon and opposite one another in the sky.  that's exactly what your video shows.

i'm sure there are other videos out there of a full moon during the day.  check them out.  you'll find that they always show the sun and moon near the horizon and opposite one another in the sky.

also the earth's axis is tilted.  read the faq.  it's not a coincidence that this event happened at a northern latitude (new york) and not the equator.
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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2017, 01:16:53 AM »
The author of the video states in the description that the observation was taken on April 8, 2017 6:30PM in Lewiston, NY

I plopped that data into http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php and got the following:

Altitude and Azimuth of the Sun

Quote
Astronomical Applications Dept.                                               
U.S. Naval Observatory                                                       
Washington, DC 20392-5420
                                                   
LEWISTON, NEW YORK                                                           
   o  ,    o  ,                                                               
W 79 02, N43 11
                                                             
Altitude and Azimuth of the Sun                                               
Apr 8, 2017
                                                                 
Eastern Daylight Time
                                                       
Time         Altitude            Azimuth  (E of N)                                                   
                                               
 h  m         o                     o       
...
18:30       13.9                 267.4
...


Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon

Quote
Astronomical Applications Dept.                                               
U.S. Naval Observatory                                                       
Washington, DC 20392-5420
                                                   
LEWISTON, NEW YORK                                                           
   o  ,    o  ,                                                               
W 79 02, N43 11
                                                             
Altitude and Azimuth of the Moon                                             
Apr 8, 2017
                                                                 
Eastern Daylight Time
                                                       
Time         Altitude            Azimuth  (E of N)         Fraction illuminated                                                     
                                               
 h  m         o                     o         
...
18:30       11.0                  94.9                           0.95
...

See the bolded.

So, clearly, under the Round Earth model the moon's 5 degree deviation from the ecliptic is not a valid explanation for this observation. Both the sun and moon are more than 5 degrees in the sky under your model. Your illustration just showed a sun at 0 degrees, half intersecting the horizon, and the moon at 5 degrees. This does not reconcile.

Also, under the Round Earth model the earth is tilted with respect to the ecliptic. The moon deviates from the ecliptic, not the earth's tilt. So that will not help you either.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2017, 01:19:14 AM »
I don't know what you're thinking...but a simple diagram, drawn to scale, makes it VERY clear:



The 5 degree tilt of the lunar orbit - plus the small sizes of Earth and moon relative to sun make this very, very obvious.

Orange is the sun (too big to draw - but about right) - which would be about 600 feet to the right of your monitor on this scale.

Tiny black dot is the moon (drawn to scale) red dot is Earth (also to scale).

5 degree tilt of the Moon's orbit puts it well off out of the way of Earth's shadow.

This is kiddie stuff.

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #12 on: August 10, 2017, 01:29:42 AM »
That is the SAME diagram that was just posted. Please follow along.

According to the U.S. Naval Observatory the Sun is 13.9 degrees above the horizon and the Moon is 11.0 degrees above the horizon in the video. This makes the 5 degree moon divergence from the ecliptic an impossible explanation for this observation.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2017, 01:35:27 AM »
That is the SAME diagram that was just posted. Please follow along.

According to the U.S. Naval Observatory the Sun is 13.9 degrees above the horizon and the Moon is 11.0 degrees above the horizon in the video. This makes the 5 degree moon divergence from the ecliptic an impossible explanation for this observation.

I don't see anything that shows that my diagram is incorrect.

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2017, 01:45:59 AM »
That is the SAME diagram that was just posted. Please follow along.

According to the U.S. Naval Observatory the Sun is 13.9 degrees above the horizon and the Moon is 11.0 degrees above the horizon in the video. This makes the 5 degree moon divergence from the ecliptic an impossible explanation for this observation.

I don't see anything that shows that my diagram is incorrect.

According to your diagram a person atop the the earth will see the sun at 0 degrees, half intersecting the horizon, and the moon at 5 degrees.

However, the observation which was seen was that both the sun and moon were more than 5 degrees above the horizon. The Sun was 13.9 degrees above the horizon and the Moon was 11.0 degrees.

In Round Earth Theory the ecliptic is the earth's straight line alignment with the sun, and the moon deviates from it by 5 degrees. The observations make the explanation given impossible.

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2017, 01:47:53 AM »
That is the SAME diagram that was just posted. Please follow along.

According to the U.S. Naval Observatory the Sun is 13.9 degrees above the horizon and the Moon is 11.0 degrees above the horizon in the video. This makes the 5 degree moon divergence from the ecliptic an impossible explanation for this observation.

I don't see anything that shows that my diagram is incorrect.

According to your diagram a person atop the the earth will see the sun at 0 degrees, half intersecting the horizon, and the moon at 5 degrees.

However, the observation which was seen is that both the sun and moon are more than 5 degrees above the horizon. The Sun is 13.9 degrees above the horizon and the Moon is 11.0 degrees.

In Round Earth Theory the ecliptic is the earth's straight line alignment with the sun, and the moon deviates from it by 5 degrees. The observations make the explanation given impossible.
Because that diagram is showing the moon orbit around the Earth from a different angle than is required to view the happening in the video you linked. The moon orbits around the Earth upon that plane, we are looking at the Earth from a 'side on' direction at what would appear to be roughly one of the equinox's. I'm working on a much more long winded reply with a diagram and math, but have to do it in between some things I'm doing over here so it's gonna be a little while.

EDIT: Plus it's been a little while since I did geometry, so I'm having to find some formula again.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 01:49:43 AM by Curious Squirrel »
FET - A few old books making claims and telling you how things must be based on the words contained therein. This sounds familiar....

The triangle doesn't work

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2017, 02:02:22 AM »
See the bolded.

lol you're now quibbling over ~10 degrees of arc.  that's like the width of your hand extended at arm's length. 

check out the diagram and keep looking up videos of daytime full moons.  you'll notice that they all show the same sun/moon configuration in the sky: the sun and a nearly-full moon close to the horizon and opposite one another in the sky.

you'll never see one at midday.
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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2017, 02:38:36 AM »
See the bolded.

lol you're now quibbling over ~10 degrees of arc.  that's like the width of your hand extended at arm's length. 

check out the diagram and keep looking up videos of daytime full moons.  you'll notice that they all show the same sun/moon configuration in the sky: the sun and a nearly-full moon close to the horizon and opposite one another in the sky.

you'll never see one at midday.

It's more like we are quibbling over 19.775 degrees (13.9 + 11 - 5.145). This is a significant error.

Your expectation that we should look for the moon at midday is fallacious. The moon is only seen when the sky's brightness is below a certain magnitude which is less than the magnitude of the moon. Midday is when the sky is at its brightest. The moon is generally invisible then.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 02:50:35 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Merkava

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Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2017, 02:49:30 AM »
Yes, please post us your diagram where a stick figure is 30,000 miles tall and looking around the curvature of the earth. We can't wait to see it!

Please keep in mind that the horizon looks like this in Round Earth Theory:



Your just daft.  Go to :44 sec  The shadows cast show the sun is the opposite direction.  So for a brief time the moon is illuminated by the sun.  The moon isn't that far above the horizon and it isn't full.  Buy a dam globe, hang a tennis ball and shine a flashlight at it!  You draw little silly 2D pictures in paint (just can't shake that flat obsession) that don't represent reality.  The difference in the moons orbit and Earths (~5 degrees) is why there isn't a lunar eclipse every month.  There's nothing unusual about any of this, we could tell you the next time you'd be able to see one, but you won't look.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:06:35 AM by Merkava »
Is it really too much effort to visualize in your head a light rolling around the middle of a plate isn't going to be "east" or "west" of anything it touches EVER?

Re: Impossible Daytime Moon Phases in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2017, 03:56:56 AM »
go look up more daytime full moon videos.  the sun and nearly-full moon will always be near the horizon and opposite one another in the sky.  just as the diagram shows.  see for yourself.

It's more like we are quibbling over 19.775 degrees (13.9 + 11 - 5.145). This is a significant error.

lol not really.  that's a combined "error" in angular position smaller than my hand held at arm's length.

Your expectation that we should look for the moon at midday is fallacious. The moon is only seen when the sky's brightness is below a certain magnitude which is less than the magnitude of the moon. Midday is when the sky is at its brightest. The moon is generally invisible then.

you'll never see one not opposite to the sun in the sky.  you'll never see a video like that where the nearly-full moon is to the north or south. 

just like you'll never see a crescent moon opposite the sun in the sky.
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