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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2017, 04:54:22 PM »
I believe it. But I'm wondering why Tom believes it and states it as fact. Just because "they" say so?

The NOAA studies the area between the edge of space and the bottom of the ocean and says that the atmosphere extends to about 62 miles above the surface of the earth. They have employed high altitude dirigibles and planes with scientific tools to study air pressure and other facets of the atmosphere. I have no reason to doubt the studies. If you feel that the NOAA is engaging in shady activities, manipulating photographs, faking missions, or that their information is questionable in any way let us know.

It is the position of NOAA that the planet is not flat based on their observations.  If you are going to call them credible and site their information to try and explain why we can't see things we should be able to see if the earth was flat, how can you then discredit all of the other information provided by NOAA that indicates the earth is definitely not flat?

What information would that be? The satellite mentioned above is a satellite NASA put up to collect information for the NOAA.

Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2017, 05:47:41 PM »
I believe it. But I'm wondering why Tom believes it and states it as fact. Just because "they" say so?

The NOAA studies the area between the edge of space and the bottom of the ocean and says that the atmosphere extends to about 62 miles above the surface of the earth. They have employed high altitude dirigibles and planes with scientific tools to study air pressure and other facets of the atmosphere. I have no reason to doubt the studies. If you feel that the NOAA is engaging in shady activities, manipulating photographs, faking missions, or that their information is questionable in any way let us know.

It is the position of NOAA that the planet is not flat based on their observations.  If you are going to call them credible and site their information to try and explain why we can't see things we should be able to see if the earth was flat, how can you then discredit all of the other information provided by NOAA that indicates the earth is definitely not flat?

What information would that be? The satellite mentioned above is a satellite NASA put up to collect information for the NOAA.

Are you serious?  There is endless information proving the earth is not flat.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/earth-round.html

The real question, that you dodged entirely, which isn't a surprise at all, is how can you site data from NOAA as an argument about atmospheric interference, but dismiss all of the other information that clearly shows the earth is not flat?


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2017, 12:54:43 AM »
I believe it. But I'm wondering why Tom believes it and states it as fact. Just because "they" say so?

The NOAA studies the area between the edge of space and the bottom of the ocean and says that the atmosphere extends to about 62 miles above the surface of the earth. They have employed high altitude dirigibles and planes with scientific tools to study air pressure and other facets of the atmosphere. I have no reason to doubt the studies. If you feel that the NOAA is engaging in shady activities, manipulating photographs, faking missions, or that their information is questionable in any way let us know.

It is the position of NOAA that the planet is not flat based on their observations.  If you are going to call them credible and site their information to try and explain why we can't see things we should be able to see if the earth was flat, how can you then discredit all of the other information provided by NOAA that indicates the earth is definitely not flat?

What information would that be? The satellite mentioned above is a satellite NASA put up to collect information for the NOAA.

Are you serious?  There is endless information proving the earth is not flat.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/earth-round.html

The real question, that you dodged entirely, which isn't a surprise at all, is how can you site data from NOAA as an argument about atmospheric interference, but dismiss all of the other information that clearly shows the earth is not flat?

I'm not ignoring any data from NOAA. They may test the atmosphere under a round earth interpretation, but those same tests can be interpreted under a flat earth interpretation. If you can show us some independent research they have performed which suggests that the earth is a globe feel free to post it.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2017, 06:52:44 PM »
The NOAA studies the area between the edge of space and the bottom of the ocean and says that the atmosphere extends to about 62 miles above the surface of the earth. They have employed high altitude dirigibles and planes with scientific tools to study air pressure and other facets of the atmosphere. I have no reason to doubt the studies. If you feel that the NOAA is engaging in shady activities, manipulating photographs, faking missions, or that their information is questionable in any way let us know.

Oh no Tom!!  You disappoint me!   You're accepting claims without checking the evidence here.

The world record for the highest altitude reached by a balloon (named BU60-1) was 32.9 miles...only just barely halfway to space.   No aircraft that NOAA has ever owned is capable of flying above about 40,000 feet (~7.6 miles).   The only people who could possibly have measured "the edge of space" experimentally would be the US-Airforce X-plane project, NASA and non-US and commercial space agencies...all of whom are a part of your conspiracy theory and "cannot be trusted" in your world-view.

The 62 mile number for the official "edge of space" comes about because of something called the Kármán line and was determined long before any man-made object had gotten even halfway there.

As you go higher, the air gets thinner - and a conventional airplane has to fly faster in order to get enough lift.  The Kármán line is defined as the altitude at which the air is so thin that any conventional "airplane" would have to fly faster than the orbital velocity at that altitude - and would no longer need lift from its wings.    This so-called "boundary" is determined mathematically using - not experimentally.   Theodore von Karman used the data from the X-2 aircraft - which reached a mere 24 miles up - and from that calculated this 62 mile number as the limit beyond which an "airplane" would, by necessity, become an orbital satellite.

Because the very definition of the Karman line is dependent on the orbital velocity at that altitude - the calculation of this "62 mile" number entails knowing the radius of the ROUND earth.

Since you won't trust the "radius-of-earth" number required for Karman's mathematical treatment or any experimental results that demonstrates this number - your Zetetic principles must prevent you from honestly claiming to know how thick the atmosphere is.

Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2017, 09:37:24 PM »
I believe it. But I'm wondering why Tom believes it and states it as fact. Just because "they" say so?

The NOAA studies the area between the edge of space and the bottom of the ocean and says that the atmosphere extends to about 62 miles above the surface of the earth. They have employed high altitude dirigibles and planes with scientific tools to study air pressure and other facets of the atmosphere. I have no reason to doubt the studies. If you feel that the NOAA is engaging in shady activities, manipulating photographs, faking missions, or that their information is questionable in any way let us know.

It is the position of NOAA that the planet is not flat based on their observations.  If you are going to call them credible and site their information to try and explain why we can't see things we should be able to see if the earth was flat, how can you then discredit all of the other information provided by NOAA that indicates the earth is definitely not flat?

What information would that be? The satellite mentioned above is a satellite NASA put up to collect information for the NOAA.

Are you serious?  There is endless information proving the earth is not flat.

http://oceanservice.noaa.gov/facts/earth-round.html

The real question, that you dodged entirely, which isn't a surprise at all, is how can you site data from NOAA as an argument about atmospheric interference, but dismiss all of the other information that clearly shows the earth is not flat?

I'm not ignoring any data from NOAA. They may test the atmosphere under a round earth interpretation, but those same tests can be interpreted under a flat earth interpretation. If you can show us some independent research they have performed which suggests that the earth is a globe feel free to post it.

https://geodesy.noaa.gov/

Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2017, 03:59:43 AM »
I believe it. But I'm wondering why Tom believes it and states it as fact. Just because "they" say so?

The NOAA studies the area between the edge of space and the bottom of the ocean and says that the atmosphere extends to about 62 miles above the surface of the earth. They have employed high altitude dirigibles and planes with scientific tools to study air pressure and other facets of the atmosphere. I have no reason to doubt the studies. If you feel that the NOAA is engaging in shady activities, manipulating photographs, faking missions, or that their information is questionable in any way let us know.

NOAA is legit. They don't use just dirigibles and planes, but satellites in orbit too. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/01/earth-pictures-noaa-weather-goes-16-space-science/ These photos clearly show the shape of the planet Earth. Do you doubt that?

Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2017, 06:35:39 AM »
If the Flat Earth Theory is correct then shouldn't we be able to see across the sea, using a powerful telescope, the opposite land?

 For example, shouldn't I be able to see American shores from a UK beach?

(is this question ridiculous?)

The atmosphere is not perfectly transparent.

But we can see the moon in the USA when it's vertically over the UK?   Surely the atmosphere would block that too?

The atmosphere stretches about 62 miles upwards vertically (as a gradient) and tens of thousands of miles outwards horizontally (not a gradient). We are looking through a lot less atmosphere when we are looking at things in the sky compared to on the surface near the horizon line.
Yet you can make photographs of Moon touching horizon:


Where is all your thick atmosphere? Or Moon is closer than continent beyond the sea?  ;D ;D ;D
Flat Earth is one of the following:
- nonsense
- bullshit
- garbage
- trash
- junk
- crap

Choose to your liking.

Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2017, 12:41:37 PM »
Tom may want to go back to arguing what he knows: passages from a 19th century book. Clearly, trying to cite data from the work of modern-day respected science agencies is not his forte.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 01:19:24 PM by chipsullivan »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2017, 03:53:42 AM »
As you go higher, the air gets thinner - and a conventional airplane has to fly faster in order to get enough lift.  The Kármán line is defined as the altitude at which the air is so thin that any conventional "airplane" would have to fly faster than the orbital velocity at that altitude - and would no longer need lift from its wings.    This so-called "boundary" is determined mathematically using - not experimentally.   Theodore von Karman used the data from the X-2 aircraft - which reached a mere 24 miles up - and from that calculated this 62 mile number as the limit beyond which an "airplane" would, by necessity, become an orbital satellite.

Because the very definition of the Karman line is dependent on the orbital velocity at that altitude - the calculation of this "62 mile" number entails knowing the radius of the ROUND earth.

Since you won't trust the "radius-of-earth" number required for Karman's mathematical treatment or any experimental results that demonstrates this number - your Zetetic principles must prevent you from honestly claiming to know how thick the atmosphere is.

You could also predict where negligible air pressure would exist by testing the atmosphere at sea level and at various levels of altitude, which some have done. Hitler's scientists also tested the density of space with the Nazi V2 rockets. There is more to is than Karman's mathematical treatment to suggest that there is negligible air pressure 62 miles up.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 04:13:51 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2017, 04:16:59 AM »
I believe it. But I'm wondering why Tom believes it and states it as fact. Just because "they" say so?

The NOAA studies the area between the edge of space and the bottom of the ocean and says that the atmosphere extends to about 62 miles above the surface of the earth. They have employed high altitude dirigibles and planes with scientific tools to study air pressure and other facets of the atmosphere. I have no reason to doubt the studies. If you feel that the NOAA is engaging in shady activities, manipulating photographs, faking missions, or that their information is questionable in any way let us know.

NOAA is legit. They don't use just dirigibles and planes, but satellites in orbit too. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/01/earth-pictures-noaa-weather-goes-16-space-science/ These photos clearly show the shape of the planet Earth. Do you doubt that?

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goes-overview/index.html

Quote
GOES Project Current Status

The Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite Program (GOES) is a joint effort of NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).



Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #30 on: July 17, 2017, 01:05:16 PM »

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goes-overview/index.html

Quote
GOES Project Current Status

The Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite Program (GOES) is a joint effort of NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).

Indeed - but as your link says - NOAA use NASA to launch their satellites - and you don't trust NASA (or satellites for that matter) - so if NOAA's results depend on those satellites - you can't trust them as you seemed to want to do here:

The NOAA studies the area between the edge of space and the bottom of the ocean and says that the atmosphere extends to about 62 miles above the surface of the earth. They have employed high altitude dirigibles and planes with scientific tools to study air pressure and other facets of the atmosphere. I have no reason to doubt the studies. If you feel that the NOAA is engaging in shady activities, manipulating photographs, faking missions, or that their information is questionable in any way let us know.

So - as I said before, using your Zetetic principles, you have to say that the ONLY way you have to measure the thickness of the atmosphere and the density of it's various layers is to rely on NASA and satellites - which you can't/won't do.

As I explained before - the ONLY agencies who have the capability to measure the nature of the high altitude atmosphere are those whom you accuse of faking information to make it seem like the Earth is round.   So how can you know that they aren't also faking the atmospheric data upon which you must rely in order to explain how the sun, moon and stars appear set below the horizon.

More specifically - if you don't know any of that information to a degree that an intellectually honest person would be prepared to accept - then how the heck can you come up with your "Bishop Equation/Constant"?

Incidentally, the Wiki alludes to the equation being presented there as being a simplified result from a much more complicated derivation.

I'd very much like to see the original derivation...I'm no stranger to complex mathematics/science involved - but I'm mostly interested in the Zetetic process that got you from whatever starting assumptions you made to the simple(ish) equation in the Wiki.


Re: Why can't we see across?
« Reply #31 on: July 18, 2017, 12:22:13 AM »
I believe it. But I'm wondering why Tom believes it and states it as fact. Just because "they" say so?

The NOAA studies the area between the edge of space and the bottom of the ocean and says that the atmosphere extends to about 62 miles above the surface of the earth. They have employed high altitude dirigibles and planes with scientific tools to study air pressure and other facets of the atmosphere. I have no reason to doubt the studies. If you feel that the NOAA is engaging in shady activities, manipulating photographs, faking missions, or that their information is questionable in any way let us know.

NOAA is legit. They don't use just dirigibles and planes, but satellites in orbit too. http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2017/01/earth-pictures-noaa-weather-goes-16-space-science/ These photos clearly show the shape of the planet Earth. Do you doubt that?

https://www.nasa.gov/content/goes-overview/index.html

Quote
GOES Project Current Status

The Geostationary Operational Environmental Satellite Program (GOES) is a joint effort of NASA and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA).

What is the point of this post?

You asked me for a link from NOAA that suggested that the earth is a globe, and I pointed you to a site in which they provide real time data about the shape and behavior of the planet.  Do you care to provide a relevant response as to how you are able to quote NOAA information to support a position while dismissing all of the other information they provide?

You are not fooling anyone but fools, Tom.  Maybe that is the point.