Venus Transit Across the sun
« on: June 05, 2017, 07:37:58 PM »
Seeing as I took this photo 5 years ago today.  I found it fitting to ask the Flat Earthers here how Venus got in front of the sun for this photo opportunity? 

https://imgur.com/9Ylfs

I know the Wiki says the planets rotate around the sun while the sun rotates around the earth.  So why can't we see this phenomenon on a more regular basis and why wouldn't we ever see it for Mars, Jupiter, Uranus or Neptune?
« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 07:45:19 PM by Donmagic »

Offline Shifter

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2017, 09:52:31 PM »
I think you need to clean your camera lens. Their appears to be some dirt on it.

Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2017, 10:41:55 PM »
I think you need to clean your camera lens. Their appears to be some dirt on it.

another non-answer to an honest asked question ..... maybe a credible Flat Earther will answer this

« Last Edit: June 05, 2017, 10:51:41 PM by Boodidlie »
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Offline Shifter

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2017, 11:02:39 PM »
Maybe if roundies didn't present clearly staged or doctored 'evidence' to try and make a point your lot would have more credibility too

You do not know my beliefs - I'm neither FE or RE. I do not believe humanity has evolved to a point where we understand the true nature of the universe

Case in point

Can you provide evidence that we are not living in a flat 2D universe and what we see and experience is a 3D 'holographic' representation? I bet you can not. Therefore if this turns out it the nature of our existence and universe - both sides of the debate (as far as the term 'flat' or 'globe' would be correct but ultimately the earth (and everything else) would be flat.

There simply is not enough evidence out there to prove or disprove this theory which plenty of actual scientists are devoting time and research into.

When people argue for a globe earth they are arrogant in the thinking that they understand the true nature of the universe. You could be wrong.

If you don't except your camera lens was dirty then did you consider it was a 'sun spot'? Or maybe the photo didn't take correctly and there is data missing? Your asking this on a flat earth forum? What exactly do you expect??





Offline Oami

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2017, 12:00:19 AM »
The Venus transit was predicted over a hundred years in advance and it was not a secret to anyone who had the slightest interest. Anyone living on certain areas of the earth (with weather allowing, obviously) could have taken photos of it. These areas include the entire Northern America and the most of Europe, excluding only half of the Iberian peninsula. Claiming "dirty lens" as an answer to Donmagic is pure arrogance.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2017, 04:48:11 PM by Oami »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2017, 12:03:50 AM »
Why can't venus go in front of the sun?

Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2017, 03:26:04 AM »
Why can't venus go in front of the sun?

well, then it would mean that (according to the FE) that Venus is only about 1,500 miles away from the surface of the Earth ..... correct ?
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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2017, 09:08:05 PM »
Maybe if roundies didn't present clearly staged or doctored 'evidence' to try and make a point your lot would have more credibility too

If you don't except your camera lens was dirty then did you consider it was a 'sun spot'? Or maybe the photo didn't take correctly and there is data missing? Your asking this on a flat earth forum? What exactly do you expect??

Look at all the dirty lenses.

https://www.google.com/search?q=venus+Transit+Across+the+sun&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjdpaqGkKrUAhVKw2MKHalACHcQ_AUICCgD&biw=1920&bih=950


Offline Shifter

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2017, 02:07:26 AM »
Some look dirty, some look like they could be sun spots and others look like there is data in the image totally missing or photoshopped. What's your point?


Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2017, 02:44:34 PM »
Some look dirty, some look like they could be sun spots and others look like there is data in the image totally missing or photoshopped. What's your point?

So every person that took the photos faked them?

Offline Shifter

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #10 on: June 07, 2017, 09:52:34 PM »
If something has a non zero probability of occurring then yes. Every person could have faked them


But I also said that both sides of the argument could be technically correct (only as far as the term flat or globe goes) if we do exist primarily in a 2D universe

I'm just not arrogant enough to pretend I have the answer


Some look dirty, some look like they could be sun spots and others look like there is data in the image totally missing or photoshopped. What's your point?

So every person that took the photos faked them?

Offline Oami

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2017, 04:40:29 AM »
If something has a non zero probability of occurring then yes. Every person could have faked them

Of course, every person claiming the earth is flat may simply be lying (also known as "trolling").

Unfortunately, this kind of argumentation takes us nowhere.

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2017, 03:56:33 AM »
So every person that took the photos faked them?
If something has a non zero probability of occurring then yes. Every person could have faked them
But I also said that both sides of the argument could be technically correct (only as far as the term flat or globe goes) if we do exist primarily in a 2D universe
I'm just not arrogant enough to pretend I have the answer
Seems pretty arrogant to me, claiming that EVERYONE who took a photo you can't explain must have faked them. 

If you want to get your own data, Mercury transits are much more common.  Unfortunately, the next one is a long wait, two and a half years, in November of 2019.  There will be astronomy clubs all over the country with solar telescopes watching it, every observatory with solar scopes will be observing it, you could go see it yourself.  I saw the Mercury transit last May, it was kinda cool.  Not as good as a Venus transit, of course.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2017, 12:51:10 AM »
Why can't venus go in front of the sun?

well, then it would mean that (according to the FE) that Venus is only about 1,500 miles away from the surface of the Earth ..... correct ?

It means that at the time of observation Venus is somewhere in between the earth and the sun.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2017, 01:19:50 AM »
Yeah - sure, the FE venus and mercury can drift in front of the sun sometimes - and behind it others.

The question is WHY?    Why do they do these really complex moves - which just happen to precisely mimic what they'd do if they were going around the sun in a simple ellipse?    The exact same single line equation explains all of that complicated motion in one elegant thought in RET - the same equation that explains how galaxies form - how moons orbit planets - why saturn has those magnificent rings.   F=m.a   and  F = G.m1.m2/(r.r)  - that's all you need to deduce ALL of those motions.

In FET, planets, sun, moon and stars all have to do insanely complicated motions in order to seem to behave exactly as that single, simple RET equation predicts.

If we're not accepting religious explanations (as indeed we should not) - then WHY do they make these crazy complicated motions?

This is the hardest part of FET astronomy - not whether things like transits, eclipses, seasons, etc could happen - it's a question of what simple natural laws predict these motions?

If there is a set of FET physics that can make these bodies move like this - you have to put the huge complexity required here up against the super-elegant one sheet of paper math of Newton, Galileo and others that produce the exact same exact effects.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2017, 12:21:20 PM »
The question is WHY?    Why do they do these really complex moves - which just happen to precisely mimic what they'd do if they were going around the sun in a simple ellipse?

The planets in FE are also going around the sun in a simple ellipse. So...

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If we're not accepting religious explanations (as indeed we should not) - then WHY do they make these crazy complicated motions?

Crazy complicated motions such as passing between the observer and the sun?

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This is the hardest part of FET astronomy - not whether things like transits, eclipses, seasons, etc could happen - it's a question of what simple natural laws predict these motions?

As we are empericists, the only acceptable and empirical answer to this query is that the motions are visible to us, but the mechanisms are unknown.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2017, 01:04:34 PM »
As we are empericists, the only acceptable empirical answer to this query is that the motions are visible to us, but the mechanisms are unknown.

I'm sorry - but that's simply not true.   You propose "mechanisms" for all sorts of observations - your Wiki is full of them.

For example - you observe that the sun sets - and you go one step further and say that the reason is "perspective" - so right there, you used your observation of the setting sun to come up with a "special" kind of perspective as a mechanism.

I asked why (if this is perspective) the sun doesn't get much smaller at the horizon because it's further away...and you tell me that the light of the sun is too bright and the laws of perspective don't apply...so again, you came up with a new mechanism (perspective works differently for bright light) to explain your observation.

If you truly did what you just claimed - then you'd have to say "I observe that the sun sets - but I'm an empiricist - so I'm not in the business of explaining why it does that."...just as you observe the motions of the heavenly bodies but claim not to be in the business of explaining why they move as they do.

What you're doing (consciously or not) is filling in mechanisms when you think you can do so convincingly - and conveniently deciding that it's not your method to propose mechanisms when the going gets tough.

This is what gets FET into trouble - by failing to meticulously search for underlying mechanisms for everything you see, you get into contradictions - but you don't go the extra mile to fix that.

When conventional science finds a new observation that doesn't "fit" - everyone gets very excited and immediately goes on an aggressive search for the error in our "mechanisms".  The anomalous behavior of the "EmDrive" rocket motor is one such example...it doesn't "fit" with our mainstream scientific thinking - and LOT of people are going to a LOT of trouble to figure out why it doesn't.

But FE theorists don't do that.  When something doesn't fit it's either swept under the rug - or a new special exception is made.

For example - if the sun's apparent size at sunset does not fit what your perspective explanation for it's position predicts (mechanism #1) - then you simply add mechanism #2 (bright light is less affected by perspective) to explain this new observation, without carefully considering the consequences of that on mechanism #1.   When asked to explain the observation of the transit of Venus, we get mechanism #3 - which is that Venus orbits the FET sun, and it lit by it when it goes behind the sun and is dark when it crosses in front of it..

So now we have three mechanisms...but no connections between them...and here we get into trouble:

If the sun (due to it's brightness) is bigger than you'd expect at sunset (mechanism #2) - and it's position is closer to the horizon than you'd expect (mechanism #1)  and the transit of Venus (mechanism #3) means that it's a dark circle while it's transiting the sun - THEN:  Venus should appear much smaller when a solar transit happens at sunset than when it transits the sun at noon.   That would be the logical conclusion from what you've told us.

Sadly, that's not what observations show.   Venus appears to be exactly the same size (relative to the disk of the sun) regardless of when the transit happens.

So - either one of the three mechanisms #1,#2 or #3 is incorrect - or you need a new mechanism #4 to explain this new, easily observable fact.

But rather than try to come up with one - it's easier to say:

As we are empericists, the only acceptable empirical answer to this query is that the motions are visible to us, but the mechanisms are unknown.

That's a perfectly valid intellectual point of view - but it has to be applied consistently - and it isn't.

If you TRULY choose to simply catalog observations and consistently NEVER propose mechanisms - then (if intellectually honest) you wouldn't even be a "Flat Earther" - because your observations about the nature of what you see around you would not be formed into the "mechanism" that the earth must be flat - that the map of the world is as it is, that the sun and moon are 30 miles across and so forth.

Instead you'd simply catalog a bunch of common observations - and leave it at that.

This forum is full to overflowing with simple everyday observations that contradict your existing "mechanisms".  If you choose to blow away all of your "mechanisms" - that's fine - or if you choose to follow the mainstream science approach of demanding continual effort to find (and fix) your mechanisms to account for every little anomaly you find - then that's a valid intellectual position too.

But to alternate randomly between "THIS IS DEFINITELY HOW IT WORKS" and "WE DON'T TRY TO EXPLAIN HOW IT WORKS" is not a philosophically tenable position.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2017, 01:32:46 PM »
The question is WHY?    Why do they do these really complex moves - which just happen to precisely mimic what they'd do if they were going around the sun in a simple ellipse?
The planets in FE are also going around the sun in a simple ellipse.

Not all the planets though...right?   Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, etc all periodically go BEHIND the sun and moon - but they are never seen BETWEEN us and the sun and moon...there is no "transit" of Mars for example.

In RET, Venus and Mercury are closer to the Sun than the Earth and Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, etc are further away.  Hence Mars can't ever come between Earth and Sun - so no "Transit-of-Mars" is visible from Earth.

But in FET, it can't be a simple matter of distance...the inner planets have to orbit the Sun but the outer once have to do some other complicated thing in order to be in the right places in the sky as if they were orbiting the sun - but to disappear and reappear on cue during the night.

I'm lucky enough to live in a "dark sky neighborhood" where light pollution is regulated so we get fantastic views of the night sky.   My wife and I can often be found out on the west-facing balcony, armed with binoculars.
About a month ago maybe, I was admiring a view (over several nights) of the Moon, Mars and Venus all being close together in the sky soon after sunset and observing their progress relative to each other.  It's very clear that both Venus and Mars go behind the Moon and never in front of it.  Yet Venus and Mercury sometimes go in front of the Sun and at other times, behind it - and Mars only ever goes behind the Sun.  (There is no "Transit of Mars").

Hence you have to propose two kinds of planet - one kind which orbits around the Sun (Mercury and Venus) and have transits...and another kind that go behind the Sun - and perform some other kind of motion to appear and disappear on cue during daytime and nighttime.

Incidentally: Since Venus often goes behind the moon - but never in front of it...even when the moon is relatively close to the sun - Venus will transit in front of the sun and then go behind the moon.  This is a tricky problem for you because you're telling us that sun and moon are at the same height above the Earth-plane.

In FET, if Venus really did have a simple elliptical orbit around the Sun then it would eventually crash into the Moon and cease to be a problem!

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2017, 04:31:24 PM »
As we are empericists, the only acceptable empirical answer to this query is that the motions are visible to us, but the mechanisms are unknown.

I'm sorry - but that's simply not true.   You propose "mechanisms" for all sorts of observations - your Wiki is full of them.

For example - you observe that the sun sets - and you go one step further and say that the reason is "perspective" - so right there, you used your observation of the setting sun to come up with a "special" kind of perspective as a mechanism.

The concept of perspective is an empirical concept which anyone can see. The mechanism for the "gravity" of the cosmos, such as hypothetical graviton puller particles, are not a empirical concepts. It is neither seen or experienced, and so may as well be fictitious altogether.

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I asked why (if this is perspective) the sun doesn't get much smaller at the horizon because it's further away...and you tell me that the light of the sun is too bright and the laws of perspective don't apply...so again, you came up with a new mechanism (perspective works differently for bright light) to explain your observation.

It's not a new mechanism. Samuel Birley Rowbotham reported the effect of enlarging light in 1850. We must assume that the effect has always been with us. It is a magnification effect we can see with bright lights in the distance. Very empirical.

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If you truly did what you just claimed - then you'd have to say "I observe that the sun sets - but I'm an empiricist - so I'm not in the business of explaining why it does that."...just as you observe the motions of the heavenly bodies but claim not to be in the business of explaining why they move as they do.

Explanations are fine if there is evidence behind those explanations; not pure speculation, as is the norm in Round Earth sciences.

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This is what gets FET into trouble - by failing to meticulously search for underlying mechanisms for everything you see, you get into contradictions - but you don't go the extra mile to fix that.

We have discussed the mechanisms we describe very thoroughly. A mechanism is not adopted without empirical evidence behind it. There is empirical evidence for an upwardly accelerating earth, for example, which is why that mechanism is used as an explanation for what keeps us pinned to the surface.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2017, 04:33:44 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline model 29

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Re: Venus Transit Across the sun
« Reply #19 on: June 20, 2017, 04:16:36 AM »
If something has a non zero probability of occurring then yes. Every person could have faked them
I watched the transit.  Easily viewed through simple compact binoculars and a #14 welding mask lens.  Took pictures of it too and didn't need to fake them.

Anyway, you don't have an answer.  Very well.