TheTruthIsOnHere, what is your mechanism for determining the distance to the horizon?  In the global model there is a distinct distance at which the horizon occurs according to the geometry of a sphere.   How does the flat earth community do it?  How do you justify your position?  Is your position that is just can't be known?


I own  a theodolite and I can accurately measure drop angles that predictably match the spherical model.  Have you come up with some way to take  measurements?  Have you measured to see whether the horizon actually rises to eye level?  I personally have and it never does over large expanses and the drop below horizontal can be measured and fits with spherical predictions.

To Flatout:
I am sure we have been asking the same question , but we don't seem to be getting any answers. LOL.
I know the answers for the real world, but I would just like to see some answers from the flat earth world.
I don't have a theodolite, but I do know how they estimate the distance to the horizon in the U.S. Navy.
I seem to be getting the old flat earth  runaround ?....No ?.....It must be the flat earth runaplane ?
I think TruthIsOnHere is just being obtuse. But in doing so he is just making flat earth look bad...very bad.
As if it wasn't already !

P.S.-
To TheTruthIsOnHere :
I have been giving some real world examples.
Now, how about some flat earth examples ?
I'm not the only one asking.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 03:32:29 AM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

I guess TheTruthIsOnHere is on Spring Break
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

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Offline SexWarrior

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I have been giving some real world examples.
Now, how about some flat earth examples ?
I'm confused. If you did, indeed, provide real world examples, why would you ask TheTruthIsOnHere to just repeat them?
<Parsifal> Jesus Christ
<Parsifal> Do I really have to write 6000-word sentences just to remove all ambiguity from everything I'm saying?

Where live, do the offer adult reading classes?

I have been giving some real world examples.
Now, how about some flat earth examples ?
I'm confused. If you did, indeed, provide real world examples, why would you ask TheTruthIsOnHere to just repeat them?
I think  you may have misunderstood my post.
What I meant by "real world examples" were "round earth examples."
I had some guesses for "flat earth examples" but I wanted to check to see if they were right and get them straight from a flat earther.

Since I didn't get a flat earth reply, here's my guess.:
Actually here is a simple method for estimating distances on a flat earth.
Using trigonometry, let h = the height of the observer   let d = the horizontal (ground) distance to the observer
let a (or alpha) = the angle from the ground to the observer
d= h/tangent of a
Where h=100 feet  and a=1 degree
d= 100/0.01745506=5729.0174 feet from the observer
If a=45 degrees, then d=100 feet from the observer
If my figures are wrong, please correct me ?
You would need a good theodolite to measure the angle. Draw that out to scale and you can see how small the angle would be.
And you would need a table of angle to tangent , calculator, or slide rule to look up the tangent for the angle.
And a calculator or slide rule ......or maybe an abacus ?........to compute the distance.
That is the way I would do it.
The question is How would you do it, TheTruthIsOnHere ? [/b

Since there is no horizon on a flat earth, I don't have a clue as to how you would measure the distance to the horizon....if there is no horizon ? Aye ! There's the rub !

This is all complete nonsense. anyway. I just  come here for the entertainment. You know.......Like The Three Stooges.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 11:50:43 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

TheTruthIsOnHere, what is your mechanism for determining the distance to the horizon?  In the global model there is a distinct distance at which the horizon occurs according to the geometry of a sphere.   How does the flat earth community do it?  How do you justify your position?  Is your position that is just can't be known?

I own  a theodolite and I can accurately measure drop angles that predictably match the spherical model.  Have you come up with some way to take  measurements?  Have you measured to see whether the horizon actually rises to eye level?  I personally have and it never does over large expanses and the drop below horizontal can be measured and fits with spherical predictions.
To TheTruthIsOnHere
I know that "bumping" a thread is not considered proper  Internet Etiquette, but we're still waiting for answers to the questions. I have given my ideas, but I'm just waiting to hear it "straight from the horse's mouth" from a flat earth believer himself.
My big problem is how you can say "There is no horizon" since it is such an obvious fact of life ?
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 04:47:35 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

I would still be interested in hearing a report from a flat earth believer if he ever visited any naval installation - ship, station, or even a recruiting office - and sat down and  had a discussion concerning "flat earth."
Betcha they'll never do it ! Dare ya to do it !

I'll be honest. I may be a bit dense. But that old "horizon" thing is my big hang up on the flat earth . As far as I can figure it, if you were that person on the beach or on the ship, you could see forever if it wasn't for the density of the "atmoplane". Then you would just see a blur. If the earth was flat there would be no curvature of the earth to limit the distance you could see.
But going back to flat earth . You show me and I'll show you. Seeing is believing.
But the horizon is a very real thing. And so is the globe.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 03:33:58 AM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

TheTruthIsOnHere, what is your mechanism for determining the distance to the horizon?  In the global model there is a distinct distance at which the horizon occurs according to the geometry of a sphere.   How does the flat earth community do it?  How do you justify your position?  Is your position that is just can't be known?

I own  a theodolite and I can accurately measure drop angles that predictably match the spherical model.  Have you come up with some way to take  measurements?  Have you measured to see whether the horizon actually rises to eye level?  I personally have and it never does over large expanses and the drop below horizontal can be measured and fits with spherical predictions.

To Flatout:
How close can you read angles on your theodolite ?
I have been doing the maths on my examples as explained on a previous post and the angle of the ground to the observer for most distances would be less than 1 degree and require rather precise measurements.
Perhaps one of the FES experts can give some examples of how it's done ?
As has been stated there is no horizon on a flat earth so that would not be a limiting factor in how far you could see if the earth  was flat other than "the thickness or density of the atmoplane."
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 04:01:36 AM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Offline Flatout

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TheTruthIsOnHere, what is your mechanism for determining the distance to the horizon?  In the global model there is a distinct distance at which the horizon occurs according to the geometry of a sphere.   How does the flat earth community do it?  How do you justify your position?  Is your position that is just can't be known?

I own  a theodolite and I can accurately measure drop angles that predictably match the spherical model.  Have you come up with some way to take  measurements?  Have you measured to see whether the horizon actually rises to eye level?  I personally have and it never does over large expanses and the drop below horizontal can be measured and fits with spherical predictions.

To Flatout:
How close can you read angles on your theodolite ?
I have been doing the maths on my examples as explained on a previous post and the angle of the ground to the observer for most distances would be less than 1 degree and require rather precise measurements.
Perhaps one of the FES experts can give some examples of how it's done ?
As has been stated there is no horizon on a flat earth so that would not be a limiting factor in how far you could see if the earth  was flat other than "the thickness or density of the atmoplane."
±-3" (arc seconds)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 05:29:12 AM by Flatout »

TheTruthIsOnHere, what is your mechanism for determining the distance to the horizon?  In the global model there is a distinct distance at which the horizon occurs according to the geometry of a sphere.   How does the flat earth community do it?  How do you justify your position?  Is your position that is just can't be known?

I own  a theodolite and I can accurately measure drop angles that predictably match the spherical model.  Have you come up with some way to take  measurements?  Have you measured to see whether the horizon actually rises to eye level?  I personally have and it never does over large expanses and the drop below horizontal can be measured and fits with spherical predictions.

To Flatout:
How close can you read angles on your theodolite ?
I have been doing the maths on my examples as explained on a previous post and the angle of the ground to the observer for most distances would be less than 1 degree and require rather precise measurements.
Perhaps one of the FES experts can give some examples of how it's done ?
As has been stated there is no horizon on a flat earth so that would not be a limiting factor in how far you could see if the earth  was flat other than "the thickness or density of the atmoplane."
ur
±-3" (arc seconds)

OK. Thanks Flatout. You could do those measurements with your theodolite. I am assuming that is the way it would be done on a flat earth. But it would take some careful measurements and computations.

My questions remain :
(1) Is there or is there not a horizon on a flat earth ?
(2) If there is a horizon on a flat earth, how would you estimate the distance to it ?
(3) Where would the horizon be on a flat earth ?

On the round earth, estimating the distance to the horizon is a simple process...
And we do know there is a horizon on a round earth.
And we do know it has been done and is being done.

But the problem on the flat earth is knowing where the horizon is ?
And if there is a horizon on a flat earth ?
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 12:08:33 AM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Gecko, what don't you understand. The horizon isn't a real place. Even on a round earth your vision is still subject to the same "tunnel vision" optical illusion. Yet you, or OP, completely don't account for that whatsoever. Some half ass illustration from MS Paint with absolutely no scale or accommodation for the effect of perspective on vision are not accurate representations of reality.

So Geek, if you really want the flat earth formula for the distance to horizon, take your little navy guide, and use a little trigonometry and that would be just as useful for estimating the distance to the imaginary place you are dying to locate.

Offline Flatout

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On a spherical earth the horizon is a real place.  That location is dependant on the topography and the elevation of the observer.  It's location can be predicted, measured, and is consistently at the same place when observed from a give  observation point providing that its not obscured by the weather. 

On a spherical earth the horizon is a real place.  That location is dependant on the topography and the elevation of the observer.  It's location can be predicted, measured, and is consistently at the same place when observed from a give  observation point providing that its not obscured by the weather.

Under absolutely no circumstance is the horizon a real place.

Offline Flatout

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On a spherical earth the horizon is a real place.  That location is dependant on the topography and the elevation of the observer.  It's location can be predicted, measured, and is consistently at the same place when observed from a give  observation point providing that its not obscured by the weather.

Under absolutely no circumstance is the horizon a real place.
The reality is that we can put the horizon at a specific position in geography when viewed from a given position.  For example, the circle on many naval commercial radar screens represents the line of site horizon.  The circle will encompass a larger radius of land based on the height of the radar transmitter/receiver.  The same is true  aircraft based radar.  This is an issue of geometry not atmoplane translucence.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 06:09:15 PM by Flatout »

To TheTruthIsOnHere

I think you should talk to a real sailor and ask him if the horizon was a real thing to him.
I don't consider myself a real sailor. I was just a navy radio and radar repair man.
The best I can remember was port was on the left side and I think starboard was on the right side of the ship.
Or was it the other way around ? I would have to go back on some of my old books to be sure.
Go down to a beach. Any beach any where. On the ocean. Any ocean. Look out to sea. Do you really see a distinct line where the sea and sky appear to meet -  I repeat "appear to meet" - or are you just imagining that is what you see ?
I think flat earth says you would see "An indistinct blur that fades away at  an indefinite distance."
Which did you see ? Do this is on a clear, sunny day sometime.

To Flatout
For one example:
The range of the old WWII Vintage SG-1b Surface Search Radar was limited by the distance to the horizon. The antenna was on one of the highest masts on the ship. The higher the antenna, the geater the range.
This is one thing of which I can report from personal experience. I am sure of this. They were still in use my naval service.

« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 06:50:11 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Please answer me this... Can you get to the horizon?

Can you travel to it. Can you set the horizon as your destination and actually reach it?

No. It is not a real place. Why is this so hard to understand?

Naval Radar and Sonar screens have a circle on them, and that's supposed to be evidence of the earth being round?

On a spherical earth the horizon is a real place.  That location is dependant on the topography and the elevation of the observer.  It's location can be predicted, measured, and is consistently at the same place when observed from a give  observation point providing that its not obscured by the weather.

Under absolutely no circumstance is the horizon a real place.

Technically speaking you might say the horizon is not a real place.
But you can't say the horizon is not a real thing.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 06:56:05 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Please answer me this... Can you get to the horizon?

Can you travel to it. Can you set the horizon as your destination and actually reach it?

No. It is not a real place. Why is this so hard to understand?

Naval Radar and Sonar screens have a circle on them, and that's supposed to be evidence of the earth being round?

Once again, maybe not a real place, but a real thing.
The horizon is always ever changing as long as you are moving.
You are always traveling to it, but you never reach it.
 You are in the middle of circle and the horizon is all around you.
If there was land or a ship on the horizon you could set that to be your destination and reach it.

Since the range of that radar is limited by the distance to the horizon.
The distance to the horizon is due to the curvature of the earth, which is proof that the earth is the shape of a sphere, or globe.
If the earth was flat, there would not be that limitation.
You could design a surface search radar to have an infinite range ?
There are a lot of other design features to consider.
I don't know how or even if you could design a long range surface search radar if the earth was flat.

However.......Let's face the facts. The earth is a globe.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 08:06:10 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Offline Flatout

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The horizon is a location that is based on a frame of reference.   This is true for many things.  If I'm sitting in car going 40 miles per hour and I toss up a ball,  the horizontal velocity of the ball from the passengers perspective is 0.  From the perspective of the road the balls horizontal velocity is 40 mph.  It could be said that the ball is going both 0 and 40 depending on the frame of reference.  The ball could also be viewed from a vehicle going 10 miles in the opposite direction and the frame of reference velocity would be 50.  In reality that ball only has a defined velocity and location in space when the frame of reference is defined.   The same is true for the horizon.  The horizon from an eye height of 5 feet above the ocean is just short of 3 miles.  You could float a boat at that geographic location and it would be right at the horizon with no part obscured and no remaining horizon behind it.  It could be put on a map.   The horizon from the reference frame of the floating boat is at a different location.

The horizon is a location that is based on a frame of reference.   This is true for many things.  If I'm sitting in car going 40 miles per hour and I toss up a ball,  the horizontal velocity of the ball from the passengers perspective is 0.  From the perspective of the road the balls horizontal velocity is 40 mph.  It could be said that the ball is going both 0 and 40 depending on the frame of reference.  The ball could also be viewed from a vehicle going 10 miles in the opposite direction and the frame of reference velocity would be 50.  In reality that ball only has a defined velocity and location in space when the frame of reference is defined.   The same is true for the horizon.  The horizon from an eye height of 5 feet above the ocean is just short of 3 miles.  You could float a boat at that geographic location and it would be right at the horizon with no part obscured and no remaining horizon behind it.  It could be put on a map.   The horizon from the reference frame of the floating boat is at a different location.

The point is that the horizon is a known thing but there is no known explanation for it if the earth was flat.
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

I am still of the opinion that some flat earth believers should talk to some navy people about a flat earth. LOL.
Or "Join the Navy and see the world ! "
« Last Edit: March 22, 2017, 03:58:50 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !